https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=173.245.51.210&feedformat=atomexplain xkcd - User contributions [en]2024-03-28T15:29:40ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.30.0https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:1299:_I_Don%27t_Own_a_TV&diff=54618Talk:1299: I Don't Own a TV2013-12-08T01:32:46Z<p>173.245.51.210: added an explanation on how Dgbrt's concerns don't apply...</p>
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<div>Annual Data for households between 1958-1970<br />
http://www.tvhistory.tv/Annual_TV_Households_50-78.JPG<br />
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Plotted next to a fitted logarithmic function<br />
http://imgur.com/aVWmQ9z<br />
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The negative second derivative of this function<br />
http://imgur.com/xywpEJZ<br />
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If someone can find more data for television ownership I'd love to see it :) {{unsigned ip|173.245.54.12}}<br />
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Can someone explain why Randall believes smugness at not owning a television is decreasing? [[Special:Contributions/199.27.128.138|199.27.128.138]] 08:31, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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Because as TVs become less relevant, people don't feel smug for not owning one. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.216|141.101.99.216]] 11:44, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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;Current explanation - logistic curve<br />
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The current explanation is total bullshit. The thing with the negative second derivative is just saying, that the more embarrased people are, the more the change of the TV ownership rate will increase, which just means, more and more people will get themselves TVs.<br />
The other point of view is, the more smug you will look like for not owning a TV, the more the change of the TV ownership rate will decline, which means, that less and less people are buying TVs.<br />
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It has nothing to do with a logistic curve. The function, which second derivative is depicted in this comic is totally irrelevant.<br />
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[[Special:Contributions/108.162.231.19|108.162.231.19]] 08:34, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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I have the strong feeling he is talking about a sine wave, not a logistic function. It fits the curve in the comic as well as the condition of f"=-f. <br />
Also, it makes way more sense for the smugness to behave like this over time as for the first 30 years TV is culturally extremely significant and you therefore would want to own one in order to participate. But with declining quality of television and the emergence of the internet you might feel as if you were extremely progressive by not owning one anymore.<br />
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[[Special:Contributions/108.162.254.189|108.162.254.189]] 09:25, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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Yes, it definitely could be a sine curve. (see: [http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=d%5E2%2Fdx%5E2%28sin%28x%29%29 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=d%5E2%2Fdx%5E2%28sin%28x%29%29]). If one would neglect the beginning of the function for simplicity, this could be a solution.<br />
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[[Special:Contributions/108.162.231.19|108.162.231.19]] 10:07, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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We bid a tearful farewell to our friend the line break. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.216|141.101.99.216]] 11:50, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sin%283*pi*x%2F100%2Bpi%2F2%29+from+1945+to+2014 [[User:Xhfz|Xhfz]] ([[User talk:Xhfz|talk]]) 12:02, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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I agree with the commenter who said that the current explanation is bullshit, but I think he has the cause and effect reversed. Randall is saying that you feel more smug about not owning a TV as a result of observing how quickly TV ownership is becoming more or less trendy. In the 1950's, TV's were catching on quickly and becoming more popular, so you would feel embarrassed for not owning one. Later, the trendiness would start to decline as more people owned one, and you would head towards being smug. In the 2000s, people are giving up TVs because the internet makes them unnecessary. As this happens more and more, there's no point in feeling smug because you're no longer bucking a trend at all. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] ([[User talk:Kazim|talk]]) 12:49, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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In my view the title text joke is that smugness is defined as a function of TV ownership when in reality TV ownership is a function of smugness. [[User:Ralfoide|Ralfoide]] ([[User talk:Ralfoide|talk]]) 15:18, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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Hold on, the logistic curve gives very reasonable graphs both for ownership of TVs and for the negative second derivative. TV ownership easily fits a logistic curve, as it starts at zero and has to approach some upper limit. The negative second derivative has a very similar shape to the graph in the comic. Here's Wolfram|Alpha for the negative second derivative of a generic logistic curve: <http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=-%28+d%2Fdx+d%2Fdx+%28100%2F%281%2Be%5E-%28.1x%29%29%29%29>. This would suggest that as time goes to infinity, people's feelings about TV ownership approach neutral; they do not oscillate like a sine function. This makes sense, because for the negative second derivative to be a sine function, TV ownership would have to be too, yet TV ownership is unlikely to be periodic. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.55.229|173.245.55.229]] 16:28, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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I have two issues with this explanation: the first is that it's too long to comfortably read, and I don't think the comic content merits such a long explanation. The other is that it reads too complexly. The point of this wiki is to make xkcd accessible for everyone, but it talks about things like sine waves, oscillation and convergence, which not all readers are going to grok. --[[User:Mynotoar|Mynotoar]] ([[User talk:Mynotoar|talk]]) 17:24, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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If we're keeping the explanation surrounding the area of "People therefore discussed television programs frequently, as a major social activity.", it maybe ought to be pointed out that major social discussions about TV programmes dropped off as a result of the increase in the number of TV channels and thus (except for ''particularly'' notable ratings-grabbers) the question of "Did you see what was on TV last night?" increasingly needed further qualifying. (However, I'm not sure this is revelevant.) Oh, and I've a feeling I should be feeling smug, right now. Absolutely gorge myself on radio, though. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.229|141.101.99.229]] 21:18, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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I do not see any evidence that this comic's title text refers in any way to a sine curve. If you consider a logistic function modeling TV ownership over time (which would look the similar to a logistic population growth model), you can take the function's second derivative, which vaguely resembles a sine curve, with the important difference that to the sides of the curve, the line becomes more level rather than repeating the curve. I would say the determining factors are the fact that the beginning of the graph is flat (as opposed to the curve just going to zero or showing the end of the previous curve), and the fact that he mentions the "negative second derivative of TV ownership rate," and the TV ownership rate would follow a model similar to a logistic population model, which is not a sine curve, though the second derivative of such a graph would, in fact, represent a sine curve. --[[User:Zweisteine|Zweisteine]] 21:36, 4 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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Not sure if I'm coming in at the end of an edit war and pouring fuel on the argument, but I think the whole smugness/TV ownership / Programming comments are well made before the last paragraph. I'm confident that Randell's title text is a superficial comment about the shape of the graph. I've edited the last paragraph so there's no mention of sine waves, oscillation, convergence, or interpretation of where the graph starts or where it's going (that seems subjective to me). Just a link to what a "negative second derivative" is, and a statement that the comic resembles that chart. [[User:XQx|XQx]] ([[User talk:XQx|talk]]) 01:02, 5 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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Except that graph does closely represent the second derivative graphs I've seen for graphs that start slow, rise suddenly, then level out again, like a population chart, or a chart showing TV ownership over time. [[User:Zweisteine|Zweisteine]] ([[User talk:Zweisteine|talk]]) 01:18, 5 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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I think that, theoretically, something closer to an arctangent fits the number of televisions over time graph better than a logarithmic curve- at least if we consider some of the thousands of years during which nobody owned televisions. Linked below is a plot of arctan(x-2) + 1.3 and its negative second derivative (scaled to fit better in WolframAlpha's output window), the latter of which looks as much like the smugness graph in the comic as anything I've seen so far.<br />
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+atan%28x-2%29+%2B+1.3%2C+6%28x-2%29%2F%28x^2-4+x%2B5%29^2+for+x+%3D+0..4<br />
--[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.24|173.245.56.24]] 03:45, 5 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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While the previous explanation of the title text involving the sine function was bogus (it's the second derivative of TV ownership rate, not the second derivative of smugness), the stuff about logistic (or arctangent or other sigmoid) functions is correct (if you believe that TV ownership should follow a sigmoid curve). I think that this can be explained, so I've put that in; hopefully, one can read it without the parentheses to get something understandable to lay folk, and then the parentheses show where Randall's mathematical jargon comes in. —[[User:TobyBartels|TobyBartels]] ([[User talk:TobyBartels|talk]]) 04:59, 5 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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The "this is incomplete because it needs further information" is not much of an explanation of what needs to be completed. It looks like the tag was added when the explanation was really, really poor and it't now obsolete. I would update it if I could figure out something that is still missing, but at this moment it looks like removing it altogether could be a better option. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.53.117|173.245.53.117]] 09:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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: Agreed. Removed. —[[User:TobyBartels|TobyBartels]] ([[User talk:TobyBartels|talk]]) 17:28, 5 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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I feel quite smug, not having to pay £145.50 a year to watch people wanting to be famous, or wanting to remind people that they used to be famous, screaming for attention on "Strictly Got Talent Factor On Ice Brother" [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.218|141.101.99.218]] 16:06, 5 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:As a fellow Britisher, similarly not paying for (or needing!) a TV Licence, I think this might need explaining to the furriners here. There are different payment methods (<strike>up to</strike> down to, and including, purely commercial channels, but also the same cable/satelite subscriptions as we might ''also'' have to make) supporting TV channels, elsewhere. And how do ''you'' deal with the TV Licencing people, pestering you about your TV that you (I presume) do not have? [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.229|141.101.99.229]] 02:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:: 5 simple words: "I don't have a TV" and they go away for a couple of years. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.211|141.101.98.211]] 11:27, 6 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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;Sigmoid function or Sine curve<br />
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I'm sorry, but the {{w|Sigmoid function}} doesn't fit the graph. A sine looks much more closer but in fact it is some like f(x) + g(x), the second part looks much more like a sine (but also not accurate) while the first part looks different. And only the second derivative on this graph is important. So g(x) looks similar to a sine and the second derivative shows just an inverted plot, that's the point. There is no real math function.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 20:39, 5 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:Back-tracing the provided graph, the (negative) second derivative is clearly near zero up until nearly 1950, declines to a minima around 1965 (it appears to be around 40 pixels per decade, along the scale) before crossing the zero mark at 1980 to a maxima around 2001/2002-ish, then falling again.<br />
:Thus the (positive) first derivative (with an unknown constant of offset) is near horizontal until the 1950s, rises to its steepest in 1965 (i.e. the acceleration in rate of growth is the highest... consistent the uptake of the 'new' technology being popular), continues upwards but finally hits a maxima (in actual rate of growth of TV ownership) in 1980, before tailing off (probably still a rate of ''increase'', but near saturation level. Just after the millenium is around the time I'd expect to see a rise in Large Screen TVs being sold (plasma TVs were late '90s, and we're starting to see proper flatscreen LCDs and, later, OLED versions).<br />
:So, can we relate that to the 'zeroeth' derivative? (i.e. The actual rate of TV ownership... or is it sales..? May be both if you allow for multi-TV homes.) Starting at zero ownership, there was a slow uptake around the 1950s (for the UK, 1953 - the year of the Coronation - was supposed to be the start of the mass-market TV revolution, but perhaps only around one house a street actually ''getting'' a TV for the event... still, it'd somewhat match the quick start of the (negative) curve in the cartoon). The mid 1960s was (amongst other things) the height of the Space Race, and thus in the white-heat of that particular phase of technology. By the 1980s, most existing households without TVs weren't ''going'' to get them, so uptake would have flattened from that point onwards, until eventually the millenium came about and newer/additional sets were installed in houses during that particular credit-boom and period of techno-consumerism.<br />
:IIW, I think it matches a (convoluted, multi-inflected) S-curve from zero on upwards. Possibly beyond 100% if multi-TV ownership counts to technically allow the original curve to strike up above that value. I may have zero TVs operating in my house but most families I know have at ''least'' two of them. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.229|141.101.99.229]] 02:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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As you (Dgbrt) say, the sine curve doesn't fit the beginning (and it would require TV ownership rate to also fit a sine curve, which is implausible). But the sigmoid curve fits it fine! People above have posted some negative second derivatives of sigmoid curves, and they match the graph. Here is a broad selection: [http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2nd+derivative+-4%2F%281%2Be^%28-x%29%29 0], [http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2nd+derivative+-erf%28sqrt%28pi%29%2F2*x%29 1], [http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2nd+derivative+-tanh+x 2], [http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2nd+derivative+-2%2Fpi+*+gd%28pi%2F2+*+x%29 3], [http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2nd+derivative+-x%2Fsqrt%281%2Bx^2%29 4], [http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2nd+derivative+-2%2Fpi+*+atan+%28pi%2F2+*+x%29 5], [http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2nd+derivative+-x%2F%281%2B|x|%29 6] (list derived from Wikipedia's article). I think that Randall's curve fits best between 1 and 2 (it all breaks down when you get to 6). —[[User:TobyBartels|TobyBartels]] ([[User talk:TobyBartels|talk]]) 04:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Am I blind or do I hallucinate? The sigmoid curves look very different, just let's say it is a graph and explain the second derivative.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 11:47, 6 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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::The main point of this seems to be smugness being relative to how odd you are compared to the average. The problem here is the oddness is by choice or simply you can't afford one in the early days. The difference towards the more modern era will be that people will feel smug for not having a TV, but may also feel smug for owning way above average many TVs. Other options also should have altered the graph, such as multi-function TV/Monitors(which I'm using mostly for a monitor and occasionally as a TV for science documentary) and smart phones/tablets which got TV functions, on the other hand, people may own a TV as part of a home entertainment system, which means what is showed in the channels is completely irrelavent. The increase of options has reduced the smugness for not owning one, because there are so many things with a TV function and so many things a TV can do, not owning one means that you are almost technologically isolated, which most would feel embarassed. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.62.228|173.245.62.228]] 18:42, 6 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:::I'm only talking about the sigmoid graph, it's simply wrong. I never did criticize the interpretations and explanations, that function simply doesn't match the plot at the comic. --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 20:10, 6 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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Check for blindness or hallucination:<br />
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* Do you agree that Randall's graph looks more or less like the 7 graphs that I linked above, especially the first few? (Same basic shape.)<br />
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* Do you agree that Wolfram Alpha produced those graphs after I properly asked it about the negative second derivatives of various functions? (Check for words "second derivative" and minus sign.)<br />
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* Do you agree that these functions are all listed on the Wikipedia page about sigmoid curves? (Graph 0 matches the formula for a logistic function, multiplied by 4 to put it on the same scale as the others; graphs 1 through 6 have the same formula as the graph on Wikipedia comparing six sigmoid curves.)<br />
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If you can see all of this, then you are not blind or hallucinating.<br />
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Nota bene: nobody is claiming that Randall's graph is itself a sigmoid curve. It is the negative second derivative of a sigmoid curve. This is what it should be, since Randall conjectures that it's the negative second derivative of the TV ownership rate, and the TV ownership rate should follow a sigmoid curve.<br />
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—[[User:TobyBartels|TobyBartels]] ([[User talk:TobyBartels|talk]]) 06:04, 7 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:First: Randall does not publish a transcript after the next comic is released because he is laughing about discussions like here.<br />
:But more Randall didn't use a function, he was only talking about the second derivative of that plot.<br />
:So, we just have to explain that '''derivative''', which is still more like a (minus) sine. --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 20:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:: Umm... no, actually, "he was only talking about the second derivative" of the (not-shown) TV-ownership function. The smugness plot (depicted) looks quite like the negative second derivatives of sigmoids, doesn't it? -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.210|173.245.51.210]] 01:32, 8 December 2013 (UTC)</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:1297:_Oort_Cloud&diff=53955Talk:1297: Oort Cloud2013-11-29T16:37:31Z<p>173.245.51.210: who came up with the "million years" timeframe?!</p>
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<div>Reading the Wikipedia page on the Oort Cloud didn't help me understand the joke. I don't know if it has anything to do with comets, or the asteroids getting smashed up by them. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.238.117|108.162.238.117]] 05:15, 29 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
:The asteroid becomes a cost after being severely burnt by the sun. It warns the other asteroid not to go over there. {{unsigned ip|108.162.221.55}}<br />
::Which, the title text indicates, is a warning that's utterly ignored... (Also being "right back" indicates a slower perceived thought process. As is probably the case for anything out there in such cold(-ish) depths of space.) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.229|141.101.99.229]] 11:05, 29 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
::: What does "becomes a cost" mean? is that a slang expression? 12:02, 29 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::: I think it's supposed to be "comet". [[Special:Contributions/173.245.52.228|173.245.52.228]] 14:09, 29 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::: No, I think he means ghost. All thats left is a faint image after all. {{unsigned ip|141.101.99.214}}<br />
At least according to my freshman year science teacher, the Oort Cloud is just a theory, and hasn't been proven. Perhaps that should be made more clear?{{unsigned|Wasda}}<br />
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----<br />
What's here looks exactly in line with current comet theory: A comet is "perturbed" by interactions with other objects out there, and at that distance the sun is a very bright dot, no more. On return (chancy, based on both/either burning up or being in a no return hyperbolic orbit), what has come back is fragmented and with two tails. What I'm not seeing is the second level joke - it's in the movie "I'm going to check out x" form, but I don't get the specific quote. [[User:FractalgeekUK|FractalgeekUK]] ([[User talk:FractalgeekUK|talk]]) 13:55, 29 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
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----<br />
According to http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/timeline-of-comet-ison-s-dangerous-journey, ISON's journey to earth from the Oort cloud started "At least a million years ago." So I'm going to edit "many thousand years later" to "several million years later". In other news, I recently played "Das Rad" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-7y3B8DjGw) for my kids and this comic really reminded me of that Oscar-nominated short. I hate lichen! :-) [[User:Tovodeverett|Tovodeverett]] ([[User talk:Tovodeverett|talk]]) 15:10, 29 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
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What's with the "Several million years later" context in the transcription?!? The distances might be vast and all, but i doubt the timeframe is ''that'' long... -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.210|173.245.51.210]]</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:141.101.96.4&diff=53426User talk:141.101.96.42013-11-22T12:36:58Z<p>173.245.51.210: that wasn't 100% nonsense</p>
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<div>Fwiw, 310(8) = 200(10). :-B -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.210|173.245.51.210]] 12:36, 22 November 2013 (UTC)</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1294:_Telescope_Names&diff=534251294: Telescope Names2013-11-22T12:27:47Z<p>173.245.51.210: no double-L in the original</p>
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<div>{{comic<br />
| number = 1294<br />
| date = November 22, 2013<br />
| title = Telescope Names<br />
| image = telescope_names.png<br />
| titletext = The Thirty Meter Telescope will be renamed The Flesh-Searing Eye on the Volcano.<br />
}}<br />
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==Explanation==<br />
The {{w|Very Large Telescope}} and the {{w|European Extremely Large Telescope|(European) Extremely Large Telescope}} are two existing telescopes in observatories. The {{w|Overwhelmingly Large Telescope}} was another planned telescope that as the comic mentions, was cancelled. The comic pokes fun at the generic nature of the names of the telescopes by proposing more generic but increasingly ridiculous names for future telescopes.<br />
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The title text talks about the {{w|Thirty Meter Telescope}}, which is under construction on {{w|Mauna Kea}} (a dormant volcano), Hawai'i, and seems to compare it to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauron#Eye_of_Sauron Eye of Sauron]. It is expected to be the most advanced and powerful optical telescope on Earth when completed.<br />
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==Transcript==<br />
(A list of checkboxes are given. First three in the list are checked)<br />
* The Very Large Telescope<br />
* The Extremely Large Telescope <br />
* The Overwhelmingly Large Telescope (Canceled)<br />
* The Oppressively Colossal Telescope<br />
* The Mind-numbingly Vast Telescope<br />
* The Despair Telescope<br />
* The Cataclysmic Telescope<br />
* The Telescope of Devastation<br />
* The Nightmare Scope<br />
* The Infinite Telescope<br />
* The Final Telescope<br />
<br />
{{comic discussion}}</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1292:_Pi_vs._Tau&diff=530421292: Pi vs. Tau2013-11-18T21:24:18Z<p>173.245.51.210: /* Explanation */ copy-editing</p>
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<div>{{comic<br />
| number = 1292<br />
| date = November 17, 2013<br />
| title = Pi vs. Tau<br />
| image = pi vs tau.png<br />
| titletext = Conveniently approximated as e+2, Pau is commonly known as the Devil's Ratio (because in the octal expansion, '666' appears four times in the first 200 digits while no other run of 3+ digits appears more than once.)<br />
}}<br />
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==Explanation==<br />
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This is yet another of Randall's compromise comics. A few mathematicians argue as to whether to use pi, which is the ratio between a circle's circumference and its diameter, or tau, which is the ratio between a circle's circumference and its radius. Randall is suggesting using pau, which is a portmanteau between pi and tau, and is a number situated halfway between pi and tau. This number would be inconvenient, as there are currently no commonly used formulas that involve 1.5 pi or 0.75 tau.<br />
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Some consider pi has being the wrong convention in favor of tau (see the [http://tauday.com/tau-manifesto Tau Manifesto]). Some consider proponents of tau to be foolish and remain loyal to pi (see the [http://www.thepimanifesto.com Pi Manifesto]). Occasionally, the argument is that the food, pi(e), is the whole thing, not half and have made a [http://www.piday.org/ day about it]. Others say on tau day you get twice as much pi(e).<br />
<br />
The inspiration for "pi is wrong!" is found [http://www.math.utah.edu/~palais/pi.html here].<br />
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The trivial nature of the argument is made plain in this comic. Regardless of which convention is used, the fundamental mathematics will remain unaltered<br />
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The title text for the comic is also incorrect. The first 200 digits of 'pau' in octal are:<br />
<pre><br />
4.5545743763144164432362345144750501224254715730156503147633545270030431677126116550546747570313312523403514716576464333172731124310201076447270723624573721640220437652155065544220143116155742515634462<br />
</pre><br />
The sequence '666' does not occur at all.<br />
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Apparently, [[Randall]] used [http://www.wolframalpha.com/ Wolfram|Alpha] to calculate the result (he uses it a lot, for example [http://what-if.xkcd.com/70/ here] and [http://what-if.xkcd.com/62/ here]).<br />
However, as of 2013-11-18, there's a bug in Wolfram|Alpha so that, when getting 200 octal digits from "pau", it just calculates the decimal value rounded to 15 significant digits (this is 4.71238898038469) and expands that as octal digits as far as needed.<br />
<br />
This gives a periodically repeating number. The number of digits is also represented in octal, so instead of 200 digits it is actually 310 digits, finally giving:<br />
<pre><br />
4.5545743763144164456766617143366171162404440766665105335330776311513504520604364524762740226212061363100001776216741750712622557020442741544760057441760026766230424023460366047331305225241275347777145543054127636365666430221066167347236617261603127725745513663702031155234027041040155322217227723576660045156156</pre><br />
This number indeed does contain 666 four times (with one instance as 6666). It also contains 0000, 222, 444, and 7777, but they only appear once in a run.<br />
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{{w|Mathematical coincidence|Coincidentally}}, e+2 is also very similar to 1.5pi, although only to a few digits.<br />
<pre><br />
1.5π = 4.71238898038<br />
e+2 = 4.71828182846<br />
</pre><br />
<br />
The "Devil's Ratio" may be an allusion to the "{{w|Tritone|Devil's Interval}}", aka the "Devil's Chord" or 'Diabolus in Musica' ('The Devil in music'), which is the name sometimes given to the harmony between a root note and its tritone/augmented fourth/diminished fifth. This note is situated halfway between octaves, and is named for its dissonant quality. It is possibly a cross-reference between this and the "{{w|golden ratio}}".<br />
<br />
==Transcript==<br />
{{incomplete transcript}}<br />
:(π, 'Pi', crossed out) (1.5 π, 'Pau') (2 π, 'Tau', also crossed out)<br />
:A compromise solution to the Pi/Tau dispute<br />
:Title text: Conveniently approximated as e+2, Pau is commonly known as the Devil's Ratio (because in the octal expansion, '666' appears four times in the first 200 digits while no other run of 3+ digits appears more than once.)<br />
<br />
{{comic discussion}}<br />
[[Category:Comics with color]]<br />
[[Category:Math]]</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=273:_Electromagnetic_Spectrum&diff=52442273: Electromagnetic Spectrum2013-11-10T16:31:44Z<p>173.245.51.210: /* The comic in detail */ copy-editing</p>
<hr />
<div>{{comic<br />
| number = 273<br />
| date = June 6, 2007<br />
| title = Electromagnetic Spectrum<br />
| image = electromagnetic spectrum.png<br />
| titletext = Sometimes I try to picture what everything would look like if the whole spectrum were compressed into the visible spectrum. Also sometimes I try to picture your sister naked.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Explanation==<br />
{{incomplete}}<br />
This panel is a play on the {{w|Electromagnetic spectrum}}, showing a large piece of the spectrum and examples of phenomena that absorb or emit light along the spectra. Such spectra are commonly used in physics or astronomy education contexts when discussing the nature of light. This comic extends it to absurd lengths by including examples that may be variously hyper-specific, humorous, or non-EM phenomena.<br />
<br />
The first two scales at the bottom show the wavelength λ (in meters) and the frequency f (in Hertz) of the wave. The values are related as λ=c/f, where c is the speed of light. The last line showing Q(Gal²/Coloumb) is nonsense; Gal ({{w|Gallon}}) is a unit of liquid volume measurement, and Coloumb is a likely typo for {{w|Coulomb}}, the SI unit of electric charge. Photons do not have volume in the traditional sense of the word, and are electrically neutral (thus carrying no charge). <br />
<br />
In 1887 the {{w|Michelson–Morley experiment}} proved for the first time that the {{w|aether theory}} was wrong. The year (1897) cited underneath the comic title may be an incorrectly-dated reference to this experiment. Nevertheless, after that time many physicists like {{w|Hendrik Lorentz}} or {{w|Joseph Larmor}} were still working on some aether theories. {{w|Albert Einstein}}s theory of {{w|Special Relativity}} in 1905 helped explain the theoretical basis for lack of aether and was a definitive step in discarding previous work.<br />
<br />
===The comic in detail===<br />
The wavelength starts at high values on the left and decreases in a {{w|logarithmic scale}} to the right. As a result of the inverse relationship between frequency and wavelength, the frequency scale starts at low values and increases logarithmically. The nonsense ''Q'' parameter does not change monotonically with either frequency or wavelength.<br />
<br />
Both scales are labeled with powers of ten and with {{w|metric prefix}}es. For frequencies above 100 {{w|tera-}}Hertz, it just says "other entertaining Greek prefixes like {{w|peta-}} and {{w|exa-}} and zappa-". The last prefix should be {{w|zetta-}} (denoting a factor of 10<sup>21</sup>), but is intentionally mislabeled, referencing musician {{w|Frank Zappa}}. <br />
<br />
'''Power and Telephone'''<br />
*Slinky waves by a coil. These can be either longitudinal or transverse waves, depending on the manner in which the Slinky is driven.<br />
*The human audio spectrum (from 20Hz to 20kHz). The "high-pitched noise in empty rooms" refers to {{w|tinnitus}}.<br />
*The "{{w|Wave (audience)}}" in a stadium. This is an example of a transverse wave phenomenon.<br />
*{{w|CIA}} (Secret) is a joke about all the wiretapping on phones and more.<br />
<br />
'''Radio and TV'''<br />
*"Shouting car dealership commercials" is a reference to the massive and often extreme advertising for car retailers.<br />
*{{w|Ham radio}} is a private amateur radio used for communication. "Kosher radio" is playing with ambiguousness of the word HAM. {{w|Kosher}} is a Jewish law for food.<br />
*Some frequencies of famous FM broadcast stations. "99.3 The Fox" is a modern rock station in {{w|Vancouver, British Columbia}}. "101.5 The Badger" is a classic rock station in {{w|Madison, Wisconsin}} (home of the University of Wisconsin, whose mascot is a badger). "106.3 The Frightened Squirrel" is not a real station, but makes a play off the animal names commonly used as nicknames for either radio stations, programs, or hosts.<br />
*The rays controlling {{w|Steve Ballmer}} are nonsense, but may reference real {{w|Balmer series}}, a set of transitions in the hydrogen atom that produce photons in the optical and ultraviolet light range.<br />
*AM {{w|Amplitude modulation}}, VHF {{w|Very high frequency}}, and UHF {{w|Ultra high frequency}} are frequency ranges approved for commercial broadcasting companies.<br />
*Cell phone cancer rays is playing with the belief of many people that cell phones may cause cancer (see also [[925: Cell Phones]]).<br />
*Aliens belong to a range slightly higher than the frequencies used by human communications. So they can't hear us.<br />
<br />
'''Microwaves'''<br />
*{{w|SETI}} is the "Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence" project trying to find messages from aliens. Most genuine astronomical research in this area concentrates in the microwave and radio regimes. Since aliens work at different frequencies on this diagram, that might explain why there has of yet been no positive results from SETI.<br />
*{{w|WIFI}} is the standard for wireless computer communications.<br />
*FHF is maybe "Fulminant high frequency"; it is not an abbreviation for any broadcasting frequency ranges.<br />
*{{w|Gravity wave}}s are a phenomenon in fluid dynamics, and distinct from {{w|Gravitational wave}}s. Neither is related to electromagnetic emission.<br />
*Brain waves could be a reference to {{w|Neural oscillation}}.<br />
*{{w|Sulawesi}} is an island in the Indian Ocean that belongs to Indonesia.<br />
<br />
'''Toasters'''<br />
*This is a pun on the microwave oven, which emits light at its namesake frequencies to cook food. Microwaves work efficiently due to the presence of water molecules in food, which are rotationally excited by microwave-wavelength photons and thus heat the food. Toasters do emit infrared and visible radiation to cook food, although the process primarily operates through conduction rather than radiation.<br />
<br />
'''IR (infrared)'''<br />
*{{w|Infrared}} belongs to heat. The reference to {{w|Superman}} covers his heat vision power, which has been used many times within the canon. American comedian {{w|Jack Black}} starred in a proposed scifi/comedy television show in 1999 titled "{{w|Heat Vision and Jack}}", which covered the adventures of an astronaut and his talking motorcycle.<br />
<br />
'''Visible light'''<br />
*At the bottom it is split into "visible light" and "visible dark". While dark is the opposite of light in many grammatical context, in the physical sense it only reflects the absence of visible photons.<br />
*The human visible spectrum is shown by all colors, including {{w|octarine}}, the colour of magic on the fictional {{w|Discworld}} (in the books by {{w|Terry Pratchett}}).<br />
*On top there are two {{w|absorption spectrum|absorption spectra}}, hydrogen and helium. These are the two most common elements in the Sun, and their presence in the Sun's outer envelope and Earth's atmosphere does block some small frequencies from the Sun. Next come two cases of {{w|Absorption (chemistry)|absorption}} in the chemical/technical meaning:<br />
**{{w|Depends}} is a brand of underwear for adults experiencing urinary or fecal incontinence. The color is consequently yellow.<br />
**{{w|Tampax}} is a brand of tampon. The color is red.<br />
<br />
'''UV (ultraviolet)'''<br />
*{{w|Ultraviolet}} light can not be seen by humans. No entries here.<br />
<br />
'''Miller Light'''<br />
*{{w|Miller Lite}} is a lager beer. "Light beer" typically has a lower alcohol content and calorie count, although it is also usually a light color for beer.<br />
<br />
'''Empty section'''<br />
*"Main Death Star Laser" is a reference to {{w|Star Wars}}.<br />
<br />
'''Censored under {{w|Patriot Act}}'''<br />
*No entry because it's censored.<br />
<br />
'''X-rays'''<br />
*Potatoes absorb and reflect radiation waves the same way humans do, because their chemistry and water content is very similar to the human body. Look here: [http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayinthesky/2012/12/24/boeing-wifi-potatoes/1789109/ Boeing uses potatoes to improve Wi-Fi signals].<br />
*Mail-order x-ray glasses refers to {{w|X-Ray Specs (novelty)|a novelty item}} based on an optical effect, not actual x-rays. {{w|Google Glass}} did not exist at the time when this comic was created.<br />
<br />
'''Gamma/Cosmic rays'''<br />
*Blogorays are emitted by the {{w|Blogosphere}}, apparently only [[Randall]] can detect them.<br />
*Sinister Google Projects: The first result at a search on {{w|Google}} is this: [http://ca.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment/top-10-sinister-google-activities.html Top 10: Sinister Google Activities].<br />
<br />
==Transcript==<br />
:[Everything is one big panel.]<br />
<br />
:The Electromagnetic Spectrum<br />
<br />
:These waves travel through the electromagnetic field. They were formerly carried by the aether, which was decommissioned in 1897 due to budget cuts.<br />
<br />
:Other waves:<br />
:*Slinky waves [Cueball and Megan hold the ends of a tangled slinky.]<br />
:*Sound waves [There is a snippet of a frequency band. Between 20 Hz and 20 KHz is labeled "Audible Sound." Towards the top is a line labeled "That high-pitched noise in empty rooms."]<br />
:*The wave [A row of people does a wave.]<br />
<br />
:[Three parallel scales are across the bottom. The first is lambda (m), ranging from 100Mm to 100fm; second is f (Hz), which starts at 1 Hz and reaches 100 THz about 2/3 of the way along, after which the labels read "other entertaining greek prefixes like peta- exa- and zappa-"; last is Q (Gal^2/Coloumb), whose labels are 17, 117, pi, 17, 42, theta, e^pi-pi, -2, 540^50, and 11^2. Above the scales and lined up accurately with the first two are the following:]<br />
<br />
:*Power & Telephone (100Mm to 1km)<br />
:*Radio & TV (1km to somewhere between 1m and 10cm); above that are many boxes showing subranges (AM, VHF, UHF, 14/7 NPR pledge drives, a very thin band for the space rays controlling Steve Ballmer, 99.3 "The Fox," 101.5 "The Badger," 106.3 "The Frightened Squirrel," cell phone cancer rays, CIA, ham radio, kosher radio, shouting car dealership commercials.)<br />
:*Microwaves (a bit more than 10cm to a bit more than 1mm); it also has subranges (aliens, just below SETI, wifi, FHF, brain waves, sulawesi, gravity)<br />
:*Toasters (about 1mm to about 100 micrometers)<br />
:*IR (about 100 micrometers to somewhere between 1 micrometer and 1 nm); above that is a bell graph labeled "Superman"s heat vision," with a motorcycle driving up the left side labeled "Jack Black's Heat Vision."<br />
:*Visible light (and, under it, visible dark); above that is a bell graph labeled "sunlight." There's a breakout chart above it showing the visible spectrum from 700nm (red) to 450nm (violet). There's an arrow pointing to where octarine would be, somewhere off to the side. Above that are bars showing the absorption spectra for hydrogen, helium, Depends(R) (yellow only) and Tampax(R) (red only).<br />
:*UV (about 100nm to about 10nm)<br />
:*Miller Light (a thin bar around 10nm)<br />
:*An unlabeled section with a thin line above it showing the frequency of the main death star laser<br />
:*A blocked-off portion labeled "Censored Under Patriot Act."<br />
:*X-rays (from about 1nm to about 10pm); a line above shows the frequency of mail-order x-ray glasses. Somewhere vaguely above the 10pm mark is a potato.<br />
:*Gamma/cosmic rays (10pm and smaller); above that is a bar marked Sinister Google Projects which also trails off into higher frequencies, and blogorays, which are slightly lower.<br />
<br />
{{comic discussion}}<br />
[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]<br />
[[Category:Comics featuring Megan]]<br />
[[Category:Science]]<br />
[[Category:Comics with color]]<br />
[[Category:Charts]]</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=explain_xkcd:Community_portal/Coordination&diff=52348explain xkcd:Community portal/Coordination2013-11-08T17:09:33Z<p>173.245.51.210: /* To do list */ alternative solution</p>
<hr />
<div><noinclude>{{Community portal}}</noinclude><br />
<br />
== Issue dates ==<br />
<br />
Hi Jeff,<br />
<br />
As i'm creating pages I struggle with the issue dates of comics. I've added a comment to all pages that contain the (unknown/incorrect) dates. Is there a way to research those dates? --[[User:Rikthoff|Rikthoff]] ([[User talk:Rikthoff|talk]])<br />
: [http://xkcd.com/archive/] if you mouse over the comic name, it will have the date. --[[User:Jeff|Jeff]] ([[User talk:Jeff|talk]]) 18:26, 3 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<br />
- if you mouse over comic name in "Archive" section of xkcd.com. Older comics(1-44 or so) might be found in [http://liveweb.archive.org/http://xkcd-drawings.livejournal.com/?skip=40 livejournal archive][[User:Bpothier|B. P.]] ([[User talk:Bpothier|talk]]) 18:35, 3 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Should we consider using "2012-08-03" style dates and letting localization "do the right thing"? Most pages so far use "August 3, 2012" style dates, with a few incorrectly doing "August 3rd, 2012"... Presumably the template could do the localizing/localising...--[[User:Bpothier|B. P.]] ([[User talk:Bpothier|talk]]) 18:39, 3 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: The date is also available with the [http://xkcd.com/json.html JSON API], which I'm going to use for the [[User_talk:Jeff#Automatic_Import|import]]. I use <nowiki>{{#dateformat: year-month-day}}</nowiki>, MediaWiki should figure out the correct way to display it based on your preferences. --[[User:SlashMe|SlashMe]] ([[User talk:SlashMe|talk]]) 18:47, 3 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<small>Moved from [[User talk:Jeff]]. --''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]]</sup> 00:15, 4 August 2012 (EDT)</small><br />
<br />
== Date? ==<br />
<br />
How do I find the date a comic was first posted (to put in the comic header here?) [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 12:26, 3 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<small>Moved from [[Talk:Main Page]]. --''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]]</sup> 00:43, 4 August 2012 (EDT)</small><br />
<br />
Original posting date is listed on xkcd's [[http://xkcd.com/archive/ archive page]] as hover-text for each post. The first 44 comics are all listed as 2006-01-01. Many of these were previously posted on the [[http://liveweb.archive.org/http://xkcd-drawings.livejournal.com/?skip=40 livejournal site]], and some dates can be found/inferred by checking there.--[[User:Bpothier|B. P.]] ([[User talk:Bpothier|talk]]) 17:49, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== To do list ==<br />
<br />
I suggest a todo list to be added here so newcomers will have an idea of concrete things they can do to help. I'll start by moving some items I've been collecting on my user page. Feel free to add more :)<br />
<br />
'''Things to do'''<br />
* Complete all entries from the [[List of all comics]]<br />
* [[Special:WantedPages]] lists pages that have links to them but haven't been created yet.<br />
* More topics that could be covered here besides the comics themselves:<br />
** our [https://twitter.com/explainxkcd twitter account]<br />
** the xkcd irc channel (and [http://wiki.xkcd.com its wiki])<br />
** the xkcd blag<br />
** the xkcd forum<br />
** other sites explaining xkcd ([http://xkcdexplained.com/], [http://xkcd.wikia.com], [http://xkcdexplained.wikia.com], [http://xkcdexplainedexplained.tumblr.com/archive], maybe invite members+content of the other wikis in once we're established?)<br />
<br />
'''Maintenance'''<br />
* Redirects should be created from the "File:number.png" format to the "File:title.png" format.<br />
* categorization (make sure these lists are empty):<br />
** [[Special:UncategorizedCategories]]<br />
** [[Special:UncategorizedFiles]]<br />
** [[Special:UncategorizedPages]]<br />
** [[Special:WantedCategories]]<br />
* building the web of links:<br />
** [[Special:DeadendPages]] (pages with no links to other pages)<br />
** [[Special:LonelyPages]] (pages that aren't linked to by any others)<br />
* other<br />
** [[Special:DoubleRedirects]]<br />
**: (Took a chunk out of these the good ol' fashioned way, but there's got to be a wiff of Perl or Python to automate this... ? -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 14:44, 9 August 2012 (UTC))<br />
**:: Well, there's [https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/mwclient/ mwclient], a Python interface to the mediawiki API which I've used to move the comics to the new names. We could certainly create scripts to perform maintenance tasks and share the snippets here on the wiki. Automated tools will be useful while we establish standards early on. If you'd like help getting started, let me know. --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 19:40, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
** convert [[Special:LinkSearch/en.wikipedia.org|wikipedia links]] to the <nowiki>{{w|Lorem ipsum}}</nowiki> format<br />
** use lowercase xkcd everywhere on the wiki (see [http://xkcd.com/about/ How do I write "xkcd"?])<br />
<br />
There are more maintenance reports at [[Special:SpecialPages]], for inspiration :) --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 06:45, 6 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: I'd love one of these "To Do" lists for admins as well! :) I'm always forgetting what I need to do! --[[User:Jeff|Jeff]] ([[User talk:Jeff|talk]]) 02:35, 12 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::: There actually isn't much to do that needs admin permissions around here. Right I can think of only a handful of admin-specific tasks:<br />
:::* Keeping an eye on [[explain xkcd:Community portal/Admin requests]] for stuff other editors might need<br />
:::* Keeping an eye on [[:Category:Pages to delete]] (currently populated by {{tl|spam}}), delete the pages, block the spammers<br />
:::* Updating the main page and watching <br />
:::* Implementing any changes, agreed by the community, that require editing Mediawiki pages<br />
:::Maybe others will have other items to add to the list, but for the most part, the things that need to be done are available to all editors: adding the missing comic explanations, describing characters, categorizing, etc. --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 19:13, 12 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Checking the above lists, here are the current stats:<br />
* 0 [[Special:UncategorizedCategories]] (OK)<br />
* 2,000+ [[Special:UncategorizedFiles]], most of them being part of the [[Time]] comic<br />
* 2 [[Special:UncategorizedPages]], both related to the same [[Time]] comic<br />
* a few [[Special:WantedCategories]], all from Babel templates on userpages i believe.<br />
Just a FWIW or TWIMC. :) -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.210|173.245.51.210]] 16:11, 8 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
:The time-related pages can be fixed trivially. The wanted categories are kinda impossible to clear up, as userpages are typically off-limits to everyone except the owner of the userpage, unless they're a spambot. We've made pretty good progress on everything else though. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|#707|David}}<font color=#070 size=3>y</font></u><font color=#508 size=4>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 16:43, 8 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
::The wanted categs can be cleared up by ''creating'' them, and adding them to the categ hierarchy. I'm just not familiar enough with said hierarchy. -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.210|173.245.51.210]] 17:09, 8 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Date categories ==<br />
I'm not sure the "[[:Category:Comics by month|Comics by month]]", by weekday, etc. Will be much useful, unless for those interested in running some stats. It might be more interesting to have specific months, such as [[:Category:Comics from May 2011]] and so on. What do you think? --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 06:45, 6 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
: That was actually next for me: #time:year-month, but I wanted to study the globalization implications. I prefer over-categorizing rather than under-categorizing, since it's comparatively cheap. The assumption is that categories are the same as tags on the old site, and that mediawiki affords us some extra ways to automatically categorize pages in addition to the manual forms starting to emerge (by character, by subject, etc.) To paraphrase an old prof: you can't study what you don't measure; I've been wanting to see if, for example, Monday comics deal certain subjects, while Friday comics deal with another, etc. Not everybody's cup of tea, but of value perhaps to some, and insanely cheap to support both mentally and for the software. -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 13:51, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I also used it to find some date typos for Saturday/Sunday/Tuesday/Thursday comics, which should usually be empty - except for some early entries from livejournal... --[[User:Bpothier|B. P.]] ([[User talk:Bpothier|talk]]) 21:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It does make it look a bit messy down by the categories... maybe we can skip one or two of these date categories, if people don't still find them useful? [[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] ([[User talk:St.nerol|talk]]) 21:22, 23 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Page names ==<br />
<br />
I think we should use the comic number '''and''' the title as the page name. Like so: "112: Baring My Heart". This would allow comics to be sorted by order in categories, but the pages would still have human-readable names for those of us who don't memorize all xkcd comic numbers ;) Thoughts? --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 07:23, 6 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:I agree, for another reason: for instance [[YouTube]] could be either the title of a page explaining how YouTube is referenced in xkcd, or the title of the explanation for comic #202 (titled "YouTube"). I don't know if I'm being clear here, but as we do not control the titles of the comics, that could create confusion with other pages. So using something like [[202: YouTube]] would ensure disambiguation without being really complicated or awkward... And actually prefixing the comic title with its number seems quite relevant to me.<br />
:<small>Additionally, that would solve potential problems such as [[Exoplanets]]: comic [[786]] or [[1071]]?</small><br />
:[[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 14:33, 6 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::Beat me to the punch; agreed. Numbers are unique and sequential, but not altogether that meaningful. Names are meaningful but (as we've seen) not unique. Some combination of both would be called for. We'd need to have the plain numbers redirect to the new topic (some double-redirects would need to be fixed up?) and the names would too (with at least one disambiguation page for now, and who knows: maybe more to come?) -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 13:55, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::Following up on the YouTube discussion above, I'm wondering if we should leverage namespaces more: main:topic is implicitly ''xkcd:topic'' (ie ''main:YouTube'' discusses the xkcd comic, while ''ref:YouTube'' is the place where the pop-culture reference of YouTube is discussed.) Either that, or some other name decoration, such as ''YouTube Explained'', or ... -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 13:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::: Agreed. Number and the name together. --[[User:Jeff|Jeff]] ([[User talk:Jeff|talk]]) 16:08, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::: Looks like we have consensus. I'll move the pages (I've been meaning to learn how to use [https://sourceforge.net/projects/mwclient mwclient] anyway :D) --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 18:01, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::: {{done}}, all current pages have been moved. However, I am not sure whether we should keep a space after the colon. What do you guys think? Should it be "112: Baring My Heart" or "112:Baring My Heart"? --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 18:20, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::::: Also, I just realized MediaWiki doesn't allow colons in image Filenames. One solution could be using something like [[:File:786. Exoplanets.png]] or [[:File:786-Exoplanets.png]], but then perhaps we'd have to change the pages name too, for consistency? I'll try to investigate what is the reasoning behind this restriction. --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 18:50, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::::: Ok, it seems like it's a matter of setting <code><nowiki>$wgIllegalFileChars = '';</nowiki></code> in LocalSettings.php (because it is set as <code>$wgIllegalFileChars = ':';</code> in DefaultSettings.php). <s>Jeff, could you do that please?</s> --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 19:13, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::::::: Nevermind, we will probably use a different naming pattern instead. --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 20:05, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::: I guess this is my bad for not ciming in on this discussion earlier, but I frankly think that the #: Name is a worse way of doing it just for the reasons of system resources. #:Name is fine from a user standpoint with the '''caveat''' that # and Name both redirect to #:Name. The problem is that this requires 2 redirects minimum for every comic, and the redirect itself takes a bit more time for each article to load, and (as I understand from wikipedia and its dislike of double redirects), every redirect adds to the system load. So if every article lookup by users (who will undoubtedly type either the number or the name, but rarely both) is a redirect, the system load is going to go up.<br />
<br />
::::::: As an aside, assuming Jeff is able to install the Cite Extension to add citation referencing (and even if he doesn't), I was expecting to try to create some sort of template in the concept of {{tl|cite comic}} where you could basically pass a single variable (e.g. the comic number) and it would create a proper citation for that comic. Similarly, this naming format will perhaps require a template something like {{tl|comicno}} with a comic number field just to create a quick link that is visibly appealing and links properly to the comic with that number. (ie: {comicno|18} would produce a link like "[[18: Snapple|Snapple]]" or something). I'm wondering though if anyone has any coding ideas for how we might accomplish this other than the hardcode all the titles into a template. [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 19:26, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::: PS: I did some mild digging on another wiki, ''Star Trek'''s Memory Alpha wiki, and although all of its episode articles are now titled "episode title (episode)" to avoid disambiguation, which allows you to an episode template by calling the title (which template appends "(episode)" to every entry), they DO have a title-display template: [http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Template:Titles Template:Titles] - with a template subpage for every single episode setting out how the mouseover text should be displayed. It would be possible to do such a template for xkcd just so that comic numbers can be crossreferenced to titles... [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 20:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::::::: (Hoping this is the right number of colons for proper indentation... ;-) Redirects are one thing, and while probably resulting in possibly two page serves (isn't it really just two hits to the db?) they're natively supported by mediawiki. Even so, if performance is proven to be a real (not just conjectured) problem, can we do something clever, perhaps, with transclusion? Either the number transcludes the title, or vice versa? Might be a case of pre-optimization, though; in the back of my mind, it seems that the rendering engine puts as much effort into transcluding to expand templates as it would to expand a redirect in situ: either case is just a query to the DB to expand the contents of said item. (Enough rambling; anybody have any concrete metrics on this?) -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 06:23, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::Hi folks. Just thought I'd state that redirects are completely safe. They don't add any noticeable loading time for the users and the extra resources used by the server are so minor that it's akin to the resources used to type a character in notepad. Pages are also aggressively cached (by default, anyway). If you're interested, the way redirects work in Mediawiki isn't like most other sites handle redirects. It's not loading a page that makes you load another page. Rather, all content is stored in an SQL database. The content is stored under a certain name (eg, "#: Hello World!"). A redirect simply tells Mediawiki to look for the content under a different name. Slightly more work for the server (don't worry, they can handle it), but the page is delivered to the user in roughly the same period of time (if we want to be technical, the page will be slightly larger, due to the "Redirected from whatever" line added to the page (which is mostly there for the purpose of making it easier to fix incorrect redirects). I don't have metrics, but can assure you that it's almost no difference in the end result. {{User:Omega/sig}} 09:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I've been thinking about this some more, and I believe we should choose a different pattern for the page names.<br />
* First, use another separator between comic number and name, since colon is forbidden in files. A simple alternative would be "Comic title (number)", as in [[Michael Phelps (1092)]]. This would additionally allow us to use the {{w|Help:Pipe trick|pipe trick}} when linking to a comic, since content in parenthesis is automatically stripped out: <nowiki>[[Michael Phelps (1092)|]]</nowiki> results in [[Michael Phelps (1092)|Michael Phelps]]. Another effect of this is that by dropping the colon naming scheme we would remove ambiguity with the namespace system, which also uses colons to separate namespaces from pagenames.<br />
* Second, we should probably follow IronyChef's suggestion above and move them to a specific namespace, such as [[Comic:Michael Phelps (1092)]]. Other namespaces could be added for more topics, such as [[Character:Cueball]], [[xkcd:Randall]] (or [[Meta:Randall]]), [[Topic:Velociraptors]], etc. Not only we would be able to generate lists of pages without resorting to categories (which have to be added manually), but we would get lot's of "Random X" for free (random comic, random character, random topic, etc.)<br />
What do you guys think? --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 14:29, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:P.s. - Proper category sorting of the comics would be dealt with by the {{tl|comic}} template, which would also pad the numbers with zeroes to ensure 100 comes after 2, etc.<br />
<br />
::+1 on the parens... (but does that mean my recent double-redirect-fixups have been for naught? {{xkcd|541|(grin)}}) ... I couldn't put my finger on it and didn't articulate it earlier, but the fact that colon needed special attention by the software left me a bit uneasy (there must be a reason for them doing that, like namespaces perhaps) so using parentheses-es-es (as {{xkcd|297|long}} as we {{xkcd|859|close}} them {{explain|312|properly}}) seems more the mediawiki way. -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 15:03, 9 August 2012 (UTC) (I know you folks don't like my propensity to (over?)categorize, but <nowiki>[[Category:Parentheses]]</nowiki> is just too irresistible... ;-)<br />
<br />
:I think, that all of this seem unnecessary complication to me. I don't see any problem with the current system. I think something like [[1092: Michael Phelps]] flows well, is quite readable and easy to insert "as is" in the text (see the links to other comics in [[1048: Emotion]] for instance). As I understand, we would want the image files to be titled exactly the same way as their corresponding article; why, where is the need for that? (to me the simplest way, and most relevant maybe, would be to name them exactly as they are on xkcd.com; maybe with a prefix, like "xkcd - ", so that it cannot mess with other existing images such as from Commons).<br />
:I don't see the point of creating namespaces such as "Character", "Topic", etc.; what is the problem with [[Beret Guy]], [[Randall Munroe]], [[Velociraptors]], and such? with namespaces one will have to put each topic in one box (and one only), where will you put things like [[Stick figure]] or [[My Hobby]] or any other thing that will pop up without clearly belonging to one of these boxes? ''[[1077: Home Organization|just give up]]!'' :-)<br />
:About the "Random X", I like the idea that on xkcd.com, you can get a random ''comic'' (because that's all what is there), but in here you can get a random whatever: you may get a comic explanation, a character, a topic or anything, because in here there is all that.<br />
:I don't think the colon in the comic page names will pose any problem, it cannot mess with anything as long as it is preceded by a number only.<br />
:''In the end,'' I think that adding the number in the comic page names was a good choice, because there would have been real issues otherwise, but for now I would say : "don't fix what is not broken", KISS, and "just give up". :-)<br />
:[[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 16:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I have to agree with this. The existing page names are fine in my book, and I don't see any benefits of renaming them all (again). Concerning the random, though, I mentioned an extension in proposals that would allow us to choose a "random page in a category". I don't really care one way or another about character topics. Seem like a lot of maintenance when we don't even have a quarter of the comics explained yet, but whatever. Concerning the image names, I think that simply using the same name as it appears on xkcd is fine. Images are a bit of a "backend", that people don't usually search for (rather, they'd search for the comic and find the image on that page). As well, since all images are hosted on xkcd, they won't be any file name conflicts amongst the comics. {{User:Omega/sig}} 18:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Good points (and puns!), all of you. I'd like to address a few specific points (I'll highlight the key takeaways for your convenience):<br />
:::* '''I still prefer parenthesis''' for the simple reason that colons mess with the concept of namespaces (not that it has any effect on the software, which can cope quite well; I'm speaking from a user point of view). Besides, one of the reasons I proposed for having the number first was automatic category sorting, but that backfired (cf. #2 vs. #100).<br />
:::* Re rationale for having image files titled like the comics is that it would allow automatic image inclusion via the {{tl|comic}} template. However, having the prefix is not crucial for that (hadn't thought of this before), so I'll go ahead and remove my suggestion above to allow colons in filenames.<br />
:::* Note that there's no problem with "conflicts" with Commons images: an image uploaded here simply takes precedence regarding an image uploaded to commons under the same name (e.g. [[:File:Irony.jpg]] vs. [[commons:File:Irony.jpg]]). That said, while external conflicts aren't a problem, internal ones are (e.g. [[Exoplanets]]). That, coupled with the "it's just a backend" point made by Omega, is a good argument to '''use the original filenames''' (also, less overhead when uploading a new comic)<br />
:::* I understand the argument against a single primary way to classify a page using namespaces. The category system is more flexible as it allows many-to-many relationships. However, I must point out that the examples you give are no problem at all: [[Meta:Stick figure]] and [[Topic:My Hobby]] ;) So '''I'm still not convinced that using custom namespaces is a bad idea''' or a lost cause or that it won't scale up well. Besides, it makes it very clear what a reader will find on that page (explainxkcd.com/wiki/Topic:Velociraptors is a pretty self-explanatory url). And again, it allows us to use the random feature that is natively implemented on mediawiki, rather than an extension. And "random whatever" is still available, of course :)<br />
:::* IronyChef, by all means, please create [[:Category:Parentheses]] :D<br />
::: --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 20:05, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::If we're going to use the numbers in the titles, it seems logical to have the number come first so that comics are essentially sortable by number rather than alphabetically by title; although this probably can be taken care of by changing the sort title, thoug this could be tedious.<br />
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:::I don't support new namespaces for comics and characters and whatnot. I don't see what it adds to the wiki, and it just makes the links to each comic page ''even longer'' (no one will EVER correctly search for '''Comic:Snapple (18)''' on their first attempt).<br />
<br />
:::I am not claiming to be an expert on redirects. My comment was based on wikipedia pages like {{w|Wikipedia:Double redirects}} where it clearly suggests in the lead that double redirects "waste server resources". I assume this applies (at to a lesser degree) to single redirects. They may not be needless waste like double redirects, but they they do use resources. Granted wikipedia has far larger servers and much more traffic, so it may be more relevant to them than here, but it still would appear to be a resource issue; Database queries are still resource hogs, even if they are simple ones. Not suggesting they aren't safe, but if every comic load is basically a redirect, that is still two queries every time instead of just the occasional one. I'm fine with it; I'm just pointing out the issue. [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 16:20, 10 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::The reason that double redirects are bad is that linking a redirect to another redirect (a double redirect) causes the first redirect to simply display the content of the second redirect (rather than actually redirecting the page). This appears as simply an arrow and a link (a soft redirect). It uses more system resources because an actual page has to be loaded and displayed, forcing the user to manually click the link and display the proper page (whereas a single redirect would load the correct page and display it). So in other words, a double redirect forces two pages to be loaded, while a single redirect only loads one page, more or less the same as if you went to the actual page title. {{User:Omega/sig}} 21:35, 10 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::: Also, regarding the sorting argument for using numbers first: I was the one who originally proposed that, but I overlooked the fact that sorting won't work unless we use padding (e.g. "0001: Comic title"), which is kind of a hack. MediaWiki supports category sort keys natively, so we should be taking advantage of them rather than relying on a specific page title format to achieve the same effect.<br />
::::: As for the namespaces, I think I've presented my arguments for that above; let me know if any of them are unclear. I accept that one may disagree with them, but not that there ''aren't'' any benefits. Note that '''nobody''' will correctly seach for whatever page title we use, unless we use only the numbers as the final title, which I think we all agree is not desirable. --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 11:25, 11 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::::::Thanks for the double-redirect explanation, Omega. To Waldir; I think people would also correctly search for Comic Titles, at times. Some more than others, for sure. But if you are on XKCD reading a comic that has a title printed, and you want to come here and read the explanation, You would most likely search for either the number or the title that is displayed at xkcd.com. That said, if it's not a resource hog, and we can find a GOOD way to create links to comics easily (ie: I can type in {explain|123} and actually get a proper looking link to that comic's page, I'm cool with that. I really think it will add a lot of time to the edit process to have to manually type in 123: Title for every link to another comic. [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 14:32, 13 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Comic Display - another new template ==<br />
<br />
I see that the latest comics have changed over to {{tl|comicbox}} from {{tl|comic}}. This might be in response to today's tall narrow comic. I don't see any recent discussions about the {{tl|comicbox}} template. We really need to come to some form of consensus on the comic display issue. I am really not a fan of the {{tl|comicbox}} template, as I arrive at the homepage today and I don't understand what I'm seeing. There is no indication that the text on the right is the Explanation. I wasn't sure if part of it was title text or not. I figured it out, but it's not the easiest thing to see. I also don't think the navbuttons jutting right up against the top of the comic display box looks good.<br />
<br />
Eithe way, where I'm going with this is that I think we need to come to a consensus on the form and template used for comic pages. If we choose comicbox, or comic or some other template, it's all good; but we should be editing ONE template to get it working and looking the way we want; rather than bouncing between many templates and creating new ones. [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 16:26, 10 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:Yeah, I was really confused at first, and scrambled through the discussions trying to find what happened. To be honest, I'm more of a fan of the {{tl|comic}} template, with the explanation under a header explaining so. Not to mention with {{tl|comicbox}}, I'm suddenly unsure of what to do with the transcripts. For comparison, [http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1093:_Forget&oldid=6199 here] is the {{tl|comic}} template, while [http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1093:_Forget&oldid=6209 here] is the {{tl|comicbox}} template. At any rate, no matter what template we're using (I personally prefer {{tl|comic}}, but don't really care that much provided all comics use the same template), I agree that we need some kind of consensus to determine how we're formatting the page. {{User:Omega/sig}} 21:31, 10 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::Ditto on the confusion (augmented by the confusion of finding where the pertinent discussion has gotten off to; they seem to slip from page to page between visits... ) Anyway, I'm guessing this is a ''de-gustibus'' matter, but regardless of the respective virtues of either template, to my eye the template today's comic was changed to has {{explain|1070|a couple}} cosmetic shortcomings: <br />
::* The typeface is larger than normal. Just a personal preference, but it should be scaled 100% vs adjacent normal wiki text; readers can change the level of zoom if that's too small. Also, <br />
::* the image is vertically centered, so in the case of a disproportionately long explanation (like today's) it appears too far down the page; it really needs to be top-aligned, with the title text close underneath it. Further, <br />
::* for this vertical layout, there's a lot of wasted vertical space when the explanation is so much longer than the image. Rather than having two rigid columns, have we considered '''float:left''' or '''float:right''' style attributes on the image, so that whatever text is left flows to fill the entire space below the image?<br />
:: Finally, to tie this all up with a bow, (and perhaps raising an issue that may have been raised before; I don't recall, because of the shifting locations of discussions hereabouts) ... Is there a need for images to always be shown at 100% size, especially for the more extremely sized ones? Seems to me that the images here really only need to fulfill a refresher role, and clicks through the image should take the reader to the full-sized image on xkcd.com. Legally, I know we have the right to host the images here. But morally, it seems like we shouldn't be taking too much traffic away from xkcd.com as it is RM's bread and butter. Our value-add is the in the form of explanations: long as we can visually tie these explanations with the comic (by having something bigger than a thumbnail, but somewhat smaller than full size, especially for odd-shaped ones) I think we're on the positive side. Thotz? -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 05:23, 11 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::I agree with you on all points, although I'm really not a fan of having the text either beside or under the comic. I'd rather it be the same in all cases. In which case, having the text beside the comic won't do, as wide comics wouldn't be very supportive of that. Also, if the explanation is considerably longer than the comic, it just looks a bit strange to me. Float left/right would fix that, but would be a bit harder to implement with the title text (eg, if the title text and image are inside a float left div, does that div have a fixed width or does a long title text push it over?). All in all, I'd rather the text always be below the comic. It's consistent and less problematic. Regarding the size of comics, I'd rather we use the full size in all cases except the "large" comics (defined as the comics that are shown at a reduced size on xkcd itself, such as [[1079: United Shapes]]). Why? Because when I'm reading an explanation to a comic I don't understand, I'm constantly referencing the explanation with the comic itself. Having to open a new tab each time would make that a bit less convenient. {{User:Omega/sig}} 06:38, 11 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::::For visual experimentation, I've made the theoretically uncontroversial changes of text size (it's now expressed as relative percentage rather than absolute px) and I made the image top-aligned, so comics like {{explain|1093}} show the image near the top of the explanation, despite the explanation being many multiples of that image's height; we can change that back if we don't like them. There are other changes I'd like to make (see above) but I'll wait for general agreement on that (not to mention which template to use.) -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 15:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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:::::To respond to all of the previous comments; I echo IronyChef's thought - I built into {{tl|comic}} an imagesize attribute because I believe that the comic should be a managable size on this site; generally not more than say 400px; this creates a "click to enlarge" link which takes the user to the imgae's page. Although I previously thought that a balance needs to be kept because people may start coming to the wiki to read xkcd in the first instance instead of xkcd.com, I also agree with Omega's point that it's potentially unfair to Randall to entice traffic away from xkcd.com. This strengthens my belief that larger comics should be kept to a reasonable size.<br />
<br />
:::::Not sure if I said it in this thread, I think we have to look at the purpose of the box itself. In my eyes, the box is designed (like an infobox) to basically show the user the basic facts. Not user-added material or encyclopedia text. The box, in my view, is there to present all of the info about the comic that actually comes from xkcd. The image, the alt text, the title, date and number. Adding the explanation in the box basically makes the explanation look official as part of the comic. The primary content of this site is the explanations. If anything should go under proper wiki-format headers, it's that (in my opinion). The transcript is technically official content, but as I've said elsewhere, in my view, the transcript is secondary info that the comic already contains; it doesn't need to be in the infobox. IronyChef has indentified and fixed a lot of my minor cosmetic issues with the comicbox template, and there are others I don't like either (the title font is a little too weak and the top of the box is touching the bottom of the nav buttons. Don't like those, but again, easily fixable).<br />
<br />
::::: I also think while there may be instances like the "Forget" comic which is a list-form comic where having a long vertical list explanation works, a long vertical list is often harder to read and follow than a full-page-width explanation. (even "Forget" has each line of explanation end up being several lines long in {{tl|comicbox}} format.) Worse, the potential to want to fit in the box may limit users from adding to explanations which we shouldn't encourage. If the explanation is twice as long as the comic, there's nothing wrong with that, and it shouldn't look bad by going inside the template. I appreciate the attempt that the verticle comicbox makes to not waste space (using the two-column method) but I don't think this is the way to do it. I think shrinking the comic (and accepting that there will be space on either side) is the best way. As I say, 375px or 400px seem like logical limiters for most comics. This is explainxkcd, so you shouldn't have to scroll way down to get to the explanation. I too sometimes like to view the comic and explain at the same time to check notes as Omega suggests, but I can do that by control+click or shift+clicking the image to enlarge, and comparing in separate windows by tiling them or just switching back and forth - with a larger comic, you'd have to scroll up and down to read both the comic and the explanation anyway. I find I lose my place in the text when I do that. alt+Tabbing for me generally is easier to keep my place in both windows.<br />
<br />
:::::The one thing from {{tl|comicbox}} that I do like is that the box is shaded slightly bluegray. I like the separation that creates; on the other hand, xkcd.com has comics posted on white; does it hurt the integrity of any comics to have them posted on blue-grey instead of white? I'd consider changing the background of {{tl|comic}} to a blue-gray (though perhaps lighter than the one on comicbox) if people like that. That's my thoughts[[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 15:10, 13 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
{{outdent|:::::}}<br />
{{tl|ComicBox}} just got a major redesign. It looks more like {{tl|comic}}, but with the addition of a vertical comic mode. Also, bear in mind that {{tl|comic}} doesn't use white for the background. For comics like "Forget", take a look at [[Forget comicbox]]. Looks ok? <span style="font-size: 90%; background: #eee; padding: 5px 5px 5px 5px; border: 2px solid #ddd; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-left-radius: 15px; border-bottom-left-radius: 15px;">&nbsp;[[User:Grep|grep]]</span><span style="font-size: 90%; background: #eee; padding: 5px 5px 5px 5px; border: 2px solid #ddd; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px;">[[User_talk:Grep|talk]]&nbsp;</span><span style="font-size: 90%; background: #eee; padding: 5px 5px 5px 5px; border: 2px solid #ddd; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-right-radius: 15px; border-bottom-right-radius: 15px;">15:27, 20 August 2012 (UTC)</span><br />
<br />
:As noted on [[explain xkcd:Community portal/Proposals#Comic Templates]], there is no need to start a new thread there there there is already a thread on the topic here (which you've posted to). Also, if your post was "which template should we use when?" it's not really a "proposal" for the proposals page, and better fits here under coordination.<br />
<br />
:That said, I thought this topic was fairly well resolved. Jeff endorsed {{tl|Comic}} in the [[#Header_template]] discussion on this page, and this subsequent discussion seemed to resolve as well with no real consensus that a change from {{tl|comic}} was necessary or beneficial. I don't see the benefit of continuing to build new templates that basially duplicate existing templates with one extra function (vertical mode). That could have been built into the existing template, if it were deemed necessary.<br />
<br />
:I personally think there are still pluses and minuses to doing things vertically; It looks a little cluttered to have the comic up on one size and the explanation on the other. If you don't have a high-resolution desktop or you want a non-maximized window, there may not be much space for the explanation which may end up with two or three words per line and be hard to read and annoying. "Forget" was a comic featuring a long list; this made for a very long listed explanation. Most long comics will not have explanations longer than the comic, and we'll have a lot of whitespace to the right of the comic. It just looks cluttered to me. I like having the navbar centered above the comic, not the page (and also in the enclosed comic box). That's personal preference though. I think the better design for vertical comics (is just to reduce their size and put them in the standard box. They otherwise take up too much space. [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 16:48, 20 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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*I am not a fan of the discontinuity that comicbox creates as the explanation runs longer than the image. I also feel that we should focus on improving the existing {{tl|comic}} instead of further developing new templates. - [[User:Shine|Shine]] ([[User talk:Shine|talk]]) 21:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Template for New Comics ==<br />
<br />
To clarify, I'm not talking about a template like {{tl|comic}} or {{tl|comicbox}}, but rather a form to cut/paste for new comics. I'm rather new to large editing of MediaWiki pages, so I'm interested in learning of better ways of doing things.<br />
<br />
Recently, I've been copy/pasting [[User:Blaisepascal/newcomictemplate]] to set up the basic form of the page, then editing the various sections. This ensures I get the major bits. I still have to copy/paste the transcript from xkcd.com, fill in the {{tl|comic}} template, and make the number and title redirects by hand.<br />
<br />
Is there a better way? Is there anything my template is missing? [[User:Blaisepascal|Blaisepascal]] ([[User talk:Blaisepascal|talk]]) 14:06, 21 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I've created a ruby script that can be given a comic number and it will spit out a text file with the comic template filled out, the transcript, and the comic discussion template. I've finally gotten it to the point that it is usable, so that's why I'm talking about it. It still doesn't pull explanations from the blog, but that's a whole ball of wax in and of itself. I'm on Linux so it's easy to run it and have it spit out files, I assume on Windows if you have ruby installed there is a way to run ruby scripts from the command prompt. Can't tell you where things will pop out, probably in the directory you run it in, but I haven't tested it on Windows yet. I'm also continuing to work on it, so don't assume that any version you download is the final product. Oh, it also spits out the redirect line you put in the number and title pages so you can just copy/paste that.<br />
:I made it because I was going to drive myself insane making hundreds of pages without some kind of automation. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 07:24, 25 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::{{tl|create}} was created as a template for the comic list so that it could be autoloaded into comics by linking from [[List of all comics]]. That functionality doesn't seem to be working, unfortunately. For that reason, I added a "transcript" of the create text as documentation on that template. If you goto {{tl|create}}, you will find a template for new comic creation. [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 20:20, 27 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The name of the ponytail character ==<br />
<br />
I remember the community having a name for the female ponytail character (I don't recall if there is a male ponytail character, but in the interest of being complete). Was it simply Ponytail?<br />
<br />
In any case, she seems to recur enough to deserve her own Category:Comics featuring ... page. But I don't want to go create it without knowing what we can agree on is her name. So, pony (wow, didn't intend that pun) up your 2 cents. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 17:28, 20 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:This comic http://xkcd.com/322/ calls a ponytail'ed female Joanna. Is this the same character as ponytail? She might be different. Community input please. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 01:26, 23 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::It sounds plausible. Few of the characters are named, and it looks like Ponytail (compare, for example, Elaine Roberts as an adult, who has light hair, but doesn't wear it in a ponytail). The one concern is that in 322, she is clearly acquainted with Black Hat, and in 405 she appears to be friends with Danish, yet Black Hat and Danish don't know each other -- unless he tracked her down via Joanna... [[User:Blaisepascal|Blaisepascal]] ([[User talk:Blaisepascal|talk]]) 04:41, 23 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The name of Black Hat's girlfriend ==<br />
<br />
[[Black Hat]] has a girlfriend, introduced in [[377: Journal 2]]. She has thicker hair than Megan, and is seen (in [[405: Journal 3]] to be friends with [[Ponytail]]. Is there community-accepted name for her?<br />
:: No, not yet. She seems to have a personality similar to [[Black Hat]] himself --[[User:Jeff|Jeff]] ([[User talk:Jeff|talk]]) 15:48, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::I don't really want to create a "Category:Comics featuring Black Hat's girlfriend" if there is a better solution, that's all. [[User:Blaisepascal|Blaisepascal]] ([[User talk:Blaisepascal|talk]]) 15:57, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::::In my own head I've been calling her Summer because she looks like how Randall draws Summer Glau (not a good argument, granted), and in some of the comics she shows up she reminds me of Summer's characters. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 17:41, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::::Or we could call her Dearest or Darling or Danish http://xkcd.com/515/ [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 20:32, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::::::OK, I've gone with [[Danish]]. [[User:Blaisepascal|Blaisepascal]] ([[User talk:Blaisepascal|talk]]) 22:18, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::::::P.S. I love you for that. You have my eternal respect. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 22:35, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, now someone needs to update the Characters nav box to include Danish. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 22:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:I found the template on my own (aren't I a [[1032|grown up professional]]?) and updated it. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 22:53, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Can we turn off page creation for non-logged in users ==<br />
<br />
I'm not very familiar with mediawiki, so I don't know if this would be hard or not. But, it would stop the drive-by spam attacks (the ones that don't create accounts anyway, such nice bots).<br />
<br />
My secondary goal in doing this would be to get [[Special:Contributions/72.252.145.183|72.252.145.183]] and [[Special:Contributions/207.204.86.3|207.204.86.3]] to make accounts so that there is a way to get a hold of them, give them some feedback, and have them stop adding/spamming spurious categories. Both of them are creating pages with poor/non-existent explanations, sections for the transcript but missing the transcript, haphazardly adding pre-existing categories and adding tons of one-off categories which do nothing to enhance explain xkcd.<br />
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[[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 19:02, 13 September 2012 (UTC)<br />
:Tag any such comics with {{[[Template:Comic-stub|Comic-stub]]}} and you or someone else can fix it ^^--[[User:Relic|Relic]] ([[User talk:Relic|talk]]) 00:01, 24 September 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I guess you succeeded then ;) I have learned from my mistakes that I made as an anon ([[Special:Contributions/Btx40|take a look]])<br />
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::Why didn't you post on [[User talk:72.252.145.183]] or [[User talk:207.204.86.3]] (IPs have talk pages too)? I would have noticed it on either of them. It made me think that this community was more hostile than Wikipedia, which I also have [[wikipedia:User:Btx40|an account]] for --[[User:Btx40|Btx40]] ([[User talk:Btx40|talk]]) 21:14, 11 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Tagline categories! ==<br />
<br />
It finally struck me that there's that great line sitting top-right on the xkcd site. Yes the [[tagline]]. So, I've created pages for [[:Category:Language|Language]], [[:Category:Romance|Romance]], [[:Category:Math|Math]] already existed. But, I don't have time right now to go hunting down examples of [[:Category:Sarcasm|Sarcasm]]. Can I enlist the help of all the beautiful editors here to go tagging crazy? (Ok, not crazy like insane, but please do comb through everything for these) [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 19:47, 22 October 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Image updates on xkcd ==<br />
<br />
Once in a while, Randall changes the image of a particular comic (usually after someone here spotted an error!); for instance, that is the case for [http://xkcd.com/1122/ xkcd 1122 on Electoral Precedents]. It would be nice to still be able to see the original image(s) here as well as the updated version, as the discussion usually references the previous version(s) and therefore sometimes doesn't make sense without the original image in those cases. Also, consider this as a mild suggestion to update the mentioned image on its explanation page. Sorry if I've put this in the wrong place... --[[User:Jay|Jay]] ([[User talk:Jay|talk]]) 14:54, 29 October 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:For these most recent comics, someone usually uploads the version that goes public at midnight, and then corrections are uploaded on top of that. As part of the MediaWiki software, you can click on the image, which will take you to its file page, which allows you to see all the versions of the image back to its first creation. I, personally, am not sure if it's possible to link directly to a previous version, but it is there at least.<br />
<br />
:Unfortunately, due to an image resizing bug, (that we all hope is being worked on, but it's been months with no progress and no word of work or progress, so hope is dwindling) for larger images you won't be able to see it, until you click on the broken file link which will just take you to the image.<br />
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:Hope that helps some. --[[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 16:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== The Great Spam Attack Of Thanksgiving 2012 ==<br />
<br />
I believe I have now dealt with all the spam that has accumulated on the wiki. I've gone through Recent Changes and personally checked every anonymous edit since 5 this morning, and looked through every new page created. If I've missed something, please edit the page and put {{tl|spam}} at the top. Thank you to all the new editors that stepped up and went to work in the trenches while the rest of us were off stuffing our faces. I think special thanks goes out to [[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] and [[User:TheOriginalSoni|TheOriginalSoni]]. I believe what happened is, the first major attack was met with a tepid response of about a month's temp block for all the IPs. But this time, for the flagrant vandalizers they are now on an indefinite ban.<br />
<br />
Please, as you continue to notice spam or vandalization, use the {{tl|spam}} template, or add [[:Category:Pages to delete]] to the page (in the event that it's a newly created page). Leave a comment in your edit summary about vandalization clean up and someone with the power to, will deal with it.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]]<span title="I'm an admin. I can help.">_a</span> ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 06:38, 24 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Marked a wee bit that you missed. Typical, I take a day-long trip into China and an unholy mess of spam happens. May I suggest captchas for all anonymous edits for now? I would also like to get all the explanations done, or at least the ones from the blog, so that we can get the /wiki/ out of the URL to throw some of the spammers. The wall-of-text spammers all seem to include links to spam on other poor abused wikis, and I've noticed that all of those wikis also have a /wiki/ somewhere in there URL. It probably won't stop the new anon spammer, but we could probably restrict page creation to registered users only once we're done filling in all the old XKCD pages to cull those twats out too. [[User:Davidy22|<span title="I want you."><u><font color="purple" size="2px">David</font><font color="green" size="3px">y</font></u><sup><font color="indigo" size="1px">22</font></sup></span>]][[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>(talk)</tt>]] 09:27, 24 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I have again dealt with the second wave of spam this Thanksgiving holiday (in the U.S. It's the only thing I can think that would be the cause.) and protected a few pages that seem to be repeat targets. If this is any indication of what major US holidays are like we need to get the administration (*ahem* Jeff) to delegate more controls to more users, and more A.I. spam fighting than we currently have (none). There has to be tricks that Wikipedia is using to fight spam. If we get this much, I can't imagine what the wikipedia servers have to daily stand up against, they must have spam fighting tricks, and not just hordes of people that can delete new pages that anonymous spam bots create. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]]<span title="I'm an admin. I can help.">_a</span> ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 07:13, 25 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::Wikipedia has cluebot, which looks at page blanking and text insertion by anonymous users and reverts suspicious behavior automagically. I could ask cluebot's creator if we could lift the code for use here. It'll be like XERXES.ai, except it'll look for spam instead of spelling errors. [[User:Davidy22|<span title="I want you."><u><font color="purple" size="2px">David</font><font color="green" size="3px">y</font></u><sup><font color="indigo" size="1px">22</font></sup></span>]][[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>(talk)</tt>]] 07:16, 25 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Aight, so Cluebot runs off a [https://github.com/cluenet/cluebotng core engine] with a dataset of previous vandalism to work from. We can set the files up on a raspberry pi or something, leave it running and connected to the web and feed it a backlog of past spam to teach it what to look for. Gonna do it after this hellish pile of work is over, unless someone wants to ninja me again. [[User:Davidy22|<span title="I want you."><u><font color="purple" size="2px">David</font><font color="green" size="3px">y</font></u><sup><font color="indigo" size="1px">22</font></sup></span>]][[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>(talk)</tt>]] 07:50, 25 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Cluebot sounds like a wonderful thing to have around here. When I have free time I might try to develop a basic bot that catches the basic kinds of spam and vandals we see here. (Spammers create a user account, create a random page and link to a random page on the internet; Vandals almost always leave an 18 character mixed lower/upper alphanumeric comment and are anonymous, that's unique enough it should be easily catchable)<br />
<br />
==Trivia and transcript placement==<br />
The placement of the trivia sections are not consistent on the wiki; sometimes they are placed above the transcript and sometimes below.<br />
<br />
The trivia sections are often fun to read, and a good complement to the explanation. On the other hand I have a hard time imagining people coming here to read transcripts (I remember someone suggested collapsable boxes for them). I'm afraid trivia sections below the transcript "disappears" and sometimes won't be noticed at all (especially if the transcript is long). Therefore I propose that trivia sections should follow the explanation, and that the transcripts should be at the bottom of the page.<br />
<br />
Another reason for this is that the dividing line between explanation and trivia is not always clear. The end of the explanations tend to accumulate trivia-like information. The natural thing is to just "crop off" a trivia section, where deemed appropriate, and not to move stuff to and fro around the block of transcript. –St.nerol (talk) 15:15, 6 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:I agree that trivia sections, if present, should come before the transcript. By the way, I think this thread would be more appropriate for the Coordination section of the community portal. If you agree, please move it there. Waldir (talk) 16:32, 6 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Moved from Proposals to Coordination! –[[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] ([[User talk:St.nerol|talk]]) 23:02, 6 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:If an explanation contains trivia, that's an issue with the trivia being in the wrong place. Trivia is supposed to contain information that's only tangentially relevant to the comic at hand, and should be kept to the end of the page to keep the rest of the page free of clutter. Also, the comic discussion is at the bottom of every explanation page, but that doesn't seem to have deterred anyone from finding in. We could fix up some kind of collapse box for the transcripts though, since they do tend to be unneeded for most comics. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u><font color="purple" title="I want you">David</font><font color="green" size="3px">y</font></u><font color="indigo" size="4px">²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 00:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Alright, I've done a mockup for what the transcript collapse box could look like. It's in our sandbox, like?'''[[User:Davidy22|<u><font color="purple" title="I want you">David</font><font color="green" size="3px">y</font></u><font color="indigo" size="4px">²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 01:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::It looks good!<br />
::I'm not sure it is so easy to differentiate between tangentially relevant, more relevant, and explanatory information. I think there will always be a hazy zone of borderline examples. (By the way, should the explanation/trivia division be based on how ''relevant'' the information is, or on how ''explanatory'' it is?)<br />
::Now that we're getting a collapsible box; where should we place it? I still don't think it is logical to have it between explanation and trivia (if present), but it will matter less. Maybe we should move it up to the top again? –[[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] ([[User talk:St.nerol|talk]]) 10:24, 8 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::Trivia in most wikis is reserved for all the junk that doesn't add value to the main purpose of the article. In our case, that would be information that doesn't serve to explain comics, which is what people who visit the site come here looking for. The transcript is useful for cases where an image is ambiguous or easily mistaken, although it's not entirely needed for every comic. If the trivia section ever contains anything that enhances the comic explanation more than the transcript does, it's in the wrong section.<br />
:::The transcript template is probably going to have to get OK'ed by all the other editors round here before we make it a thing. It's quite a big change to make, and we'll have to change every existing page if we want to add it. We'd probably put it where we usually put the transcript if we do add it in though. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|purple|David}}<font color=green size=3px>y</font></u><font color=indigo size=4px>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 10:44, 8 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Yeah, I hope that the other guys turns up and says something too. Still, the trivia/transcript placement is not standardized, so we need to decide together what's more natural. <br />
::::*Do we want the transcript in a box?<br />
::::*Do we want it on the bottom of the page, or directly below the explanation, or on the top of the page?<br />
<br />
::::It ''is'' a borderland between explaining a comic and giving background information, connections to other comics, etc. There's no borderland between those and transcript. Also, all trivia sections I've seen so far has enhanced the explanations more than the transcript. (Probably because I didn't feel need to read it). –[[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] ([[User talk:St.nerol|talk]]) 16:10, 8 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
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::::If one actually needs/wants to read the transcript, one presumably wants to compare it directly with how the comic looks. That would be the good reason to place the box close to the comic. –[[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] ([[User talk:St.nerol|talk]]) 16:12, 8 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
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::::<strike>Sorry I dropped off the face of the planet for a while there. The run up to Spring Break nearly killed me (that's not as figurative as you'd think). I'll write a proper response in the morning, or late afternoon, after I've had enough sleep to recover from ~2 weeks of ~3 hours of sleep a night. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]]<span title="I'm an admin. I can help.">_a</span> ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 08:58, 9 March 2013 (UTC)</strike><br />
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::::I think that Trivia belongs at the bottom of the page. We didn't start with putting transcripts on the explanation page, so there isn't a law passed down from the founders to let us know how to slaughter our sheep as sacrifice (wait, that's something else). However, in keeping with Wikipedia's tradition, we put tangentially related information into its own category at the bottom of the page.<br />
<br />
::::What defines tangentially related? Well, most of our editors seem to have a good grasp on it, so I didn't think it was necessary to spell out hard and fast rules. I think the group of people that read xkcd frequently are also prone to become draconian, pedantic, rules lawyers, so I hesitate to suggest that we need to impose too much more structure than what we can glean from Wikipedia's many years of existence. This is how I categorize it:<br />
::::*The explanation, which is the main point of the site, should explain all cultural, technological, mathematical, scientific, visual, and linguistic gags that Randall includes.<br />
::::*The transcript, which helps to ensure that people aren't mis-reading the comic. This is also valuable for accessibility, as blind people cannot read images (not yet, OCR isn't that good), which is why I think Randall should publish transcript data as he posts the comics. So, I support the creation of a transcript when the comic first posts, but about a week later someone should go back and replace it with the transcript that Randall publishes so that anything we interpret incorrectly will be corrected.<br />
::::*Discussion. Since we transclude the discussion onto the explanation page anything that comes up as a result of the comic will often be commented on here. E.g. "Did you guys see Reddit blew up after Randall called them out in this comic? [link]"<br />
::::*And lastly trivia. My template test for this one is "Is this really important trivia, but it doesn't add one hoot to the explanation? Then it should go here." What jumps to my mind every time I think of this is [[Click and Drag]]. That is a prime example of a trivia section. It doesn't explain the comic, but it is meta-information about the comic.<br />
<br />
::::Why last? Because if the community cares about the points of trivia someone will bring it up. So that content already exists on the page. Duplicating that and putting it up higher makes no sense. What's even worse is having an Explanation, content directly about the comic; Trivia, an interlude with some information that's fun to know and you can stump people at xkcd meet-ups but otherwise useless; and Transcripts, which is directly about the comic again.<br />
<br />
::::I would say that Trivia should actually go at the bottom of the page, but the transclusion of the discussion page makes that ugly to my eye. But it should go underneath the Transcript. Not all of the world are "fully functional" "Average" (capital 'A' Average) and "Normal" (capital 'N' Normal) humans, and consideration needs to be spent on them. And the transcript is more relevant information about the comic than any trivia is. If there is trivia that is more relevant than the transcript, it should be worked into the explanation. If a transcript gets long and you believe scrolling is a tedious, laborious task that only proto-humans had to deal with, then add a <code><nowiki>__TOC__</nowiki></code> (the TOC is ugly because of the comic discussion template, which is another discussion) underneath the comic template.<br />
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::::--[[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]]<span title="I'm an admin. I can help.">_a</span> ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 12:02, 14 March 2013 (UTC) <br />
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:: I think the transcript could be integrated into [[template:comic]], instead of being a separate template, and use a softer and more neutral color (light gray, for example) in the heading. Apart from these details, I agree with the collapsing of the transcript, and being collapsed, its placement isn't really problematic. Right under the comic sounds ok to me. --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 02:04, 10 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:::I think this would be a good option. If the transcript were in the comic template, such that it was comic image, title text, transcript, this would be a good option for screen readers, so that the explanation would be read after the transcript. I am quite in favor of this. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]]<span title="I'm an admin. I can help.">_a</span> ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 12:02, 14 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::I made a couple of halfhearted attempts at doing that box integration, but it's not as easy as copypasting it into the right place. Will get it done when I'm less busy. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|purple|David}}<font color=green size=3px>y</font></u><font color=indigo size=4px>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 13:29, 14 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
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== Trivia section for the early comics? ==<br />
<br />
I noticed that the early xkcd comics that were [[:Category:Comics posted on livejournal|posted on livejournal]] sometimes have no real explanation (since there is really nothing much to explain), but feature a separate trivia section that mentions the original order, an alternative title text and/or a quote by Randall. Number [[7]] is a good example for it. I was wondering if it were not more practical to integrate the trivia section into the explanation text. Of course, it is strictly speaking not an explanation of the comic's ''contents'', but other explanations give meta information about the comic as well. As somebody in the section above has already mentioned: It is a thin line. I think, a separate trivia section only makes sense when there is 1) a full explanation of the comic that would otherwise be cluttered and 2) the trivia section contains technical meta information that does not add to the understanding of the comic (see [[1110]] for example). I think it more to the point to remove the trivia sections for the early comics altogether, but I thought I ask before anybody has to revert everything ;) -- [[User:LotharW|LotharW]] ([[User talk:LotharW|talk]]) 12:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
:That's still trivia that should probably stay in the trivia section, although the explanations for those comics do need work. Even if it's just to inform that reader that the earlier xkcd comics were more doodle-y than modern xkcd. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|#707|David}}<font color=#070 size=3>y</font></u><font color=#508 size=4>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 22:53, 18 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
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== To all Admins: IP User pages ==<br />
<br />
Since IP addresses are often dynamic the IP user pages should stay empty. If a user wants a user page he just can sign in here and there is no problem with links to former IP posts. Editing IP user pages produce just chaos.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 17:44, 19 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
:You're assuming that because some IP addresses are dynamic, we should bar IPs from creating userpages. For one, that's not true and [[User:50.151.2.168]] has been editing from the same address for a good half year. We cannot force IPs to do anything; see {{w|WP:HUMAN}}. IPs necessarily forfeit admin candidacy and the ability to edit semi-protected pages because of security concerns, but that's the extent of their restrictions on this wiki. {{w|User:76.117.247.55}} is a rather good example of an established IP with his own userpage on mainline Wikipedia. Also, {{w|WP:PAPER}} can likely be applied here; the disk space that a single redirect page takes up is insignificant, and mediawiki is designed to still perform well with many pages in it's database. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|#707|David}}<font color=#070 size=3>y</font></u><font color=#508 size=4>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 18:15, 19 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
::I did know you would do an answer like this. But I still fully disagree on this, an IP user is still dynamic and if those users don't like to sign in here they should not have user privileges.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 16:58, 20 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::The only answer I have to that is {{w|WP:HUMAN}}. Our IP users are just as valuable as our registered ones, and they are privy to all benefits that regular users receive except ones that could become problematic with shared IP addresses, like admin candidacy/privileges. That IP has edited from their address for longer than many registered users stay active. IPs are human too. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|#707|David}}<font color=#070 size=3>y</font></u><font color=#508 size=4>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 19:22, 20 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== "Its Cause Your Dumb" ==<br />
<br />
I'm interested in moving away from this tagline. Originally it made sense in our old blog logo in which it was Black Hat saying it, but now out of context it sounds way more condescending. I know people like it, but I don't think it is necessary to sit on the top of every page. --[[User:Jeff|<b><font color="orange">Jeff</font></b>]] ([[User talk:Jeff|talk]]) 16:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Adding the thumbnail of Black Hat back in would be trivial. We can either add it back in, or cut/change it entirely. I'm fine either way, though I did enjoy the old tagline. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|#707|David}}<font color=#070 size=3>y</font></u><font color=#508 size=4>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 19:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
::''Explain xkcd: It's 'cause you're dumb.'' is still great. Black Hat is just telling the truth. But this and the "explainxkcd.com/X" should be moved to the bottom of the header.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 20:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC)</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=explain_xkcd:Community_portal/Coordination&diff=52342explain xkcd:Community portal/Coordination2013-11-08T16:11:21Z<p>173.245.51.210: /* To do list */ checking the "should-be-empty" special pages</p>
<hr />
<div><noinclude>{{Community portal}}</noinclude><br />
<br />
== Issue dates ==<br />
<br />
Hi Jeff,<br />
<br />
As i'm creating pages I struggle with the issue dates of comics. I've added a comment to all pages that contain the (unknown/incorrect) dates. Is there a way to research those dates? --[[User:Rikthoff|Rikthoff]] ([[User talk:Rikthoff|talk]])<br />
: [http://xkcd.com/archive/] if you mouse over the comic name, it will have the date. --[[User:Jeff|Jeff]] ([[User talk:Jeff|talk]]) 18:26, 3 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<br />
- if you mouse over comic name in "Archive" section of xkcd.com. Older comics(1-44 or so) might be found in [http://liveweb.archive.org/http://xkcd-drawings.livejournal.com/?skip=40 livejournal archive][[User:Bpothier|B. P.]] ([[User talk:Bpothier|talk]]) 18:35, 3 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Should we consider using "2012-08-03" style dates and letting localization "do the right thing"? Most pages so far use "August 3, 2012" style dates, with a few incorrectly doing "August 3rd, 2012"... Presumably the template could do the localizing/localising...--[[User:Bpothier|B. P.]] ([[User talk:Bpothier|talk]]) 18:39, 3 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: The date is also available with the [http://xkcd.com/json.html JSON API], which I'm going to use for the [[User_talk:Jeff#Automatic_Import|import]]. I use <nowiki>{{#dateformat: year-month-day}}</nowiki>, MediaWiki should figure out the correct way to display it based on your preferences. --[[User:SlashMe|SlashMe]] ([[User talk:SlashMe|talk]]) 18:47, 3 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<small>Moved from [[User talk:Jeff]]. --''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]]</sup> 00:15, 4 August 2012 (EDT)</small><br />
<br />
== Date? ==<br />
<br />
How do I find the date a comic was first posted (to put in the comic header here?) [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 12:26, 3 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<small>Moved from [[Talk:Main Page]]. --''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]]</sup> 00:43, 4 August 2012 (EDT)</small><br />
<br />
Original posting date is listed on xkcd's [[http://xkcd.com/archive/ archive page]] as hover-text for each post. The first 44 comics are all listed as 2006-01-01. Many of these were previously posted on the [[http://liveweb.archive.org/http://xkcd-drawings.livejournal.com/?skip=40 livejournal site]], and some dates can be found/inferred by checking there.--[[User:Bpothier|B. P.]] ([[User talk:Bpothier|talk]]) 17:49, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== To do list ==<br />
<br />
I suggest a todo list to be added here so newcomers will have an idea of concrete things they can do to help. I'll start by moving some items I've been collecting on my user page. Feel free to add more :)<br />
<br />
'''Things to do'''<br />
* Complete all entries from the [[List of all comics]]<br />
* [[Special:WantedPages]] lists pages that have links to them but haven't been created yet.<br />
* More topics that could be covered here besides the comics themselves:<br />
** our [https://twitter.com/explainxkcd twitter account]<br />
** the xkcd irc channel (and [http://wiki.xkcd.com its wiki])<br />
** the xkcd blag<br />
** the xkcd forum<br />
** other sites explaining xkcd ([http://xkcdexplained.com/], [http://xkcd.wikia.com], [http://xkcdexplained.wikia.com], [http://xkcdexplainedexplained.tumblr.com/archive], maybe invite members+content of the other wikis in once we're established?)<br />
<br />
'''Maintenance'''<br />
* Redirects should be created from the "File:number.png" format to the "File:title.png" format.<br />
* categorization (make sure these lists are empty):<br />
** [[Special:UncategorizedCategories]]<br />
** [[Special:UncategorizedFiles]]<br />
** [[Special:UncategorizedPages]]<br />
** [[Special:WantedCategories]]<br />
* building the web of links:<br />
** [[Special:DeadendPages]] (pages with no links to other pages)<br />
** [[Special:LonelyPages]] (pages that aren't linked to by any others)<br />
* other<br />
** [[Special:DoubleRedirects]]<br />
**: (Took a chunk out of these the good ol' fashioned way, but there's got to be a wiff of Perl or Python to automate this... ? -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 14:44, 9 August 2012 (UTC))<br />
**:: Well, there's [https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/mwclient/ mwclient], a Python interface to the mediawiki API which I've used to move the comics to the new names. We could certainly create scripts to perform maintenance tasks and share the snippets here on the wiki. Automated tools will be useful while we establish standards early on. If you'd like help getting started, let me know. --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 19:40, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
** convert [[Special:LinkSearch/en.wikipedia.org|wikipedia links]] to the <nowiki>{{w|Lorem ipsum}}</nowiki> format<br />
** use lowercase xkcd everywhere on the wiki (see [http://xkcd.com/about/ How do I write "xkcd"?])<br />
<br />
There are more maintenance reports at [[Special:SpecialPages]], for inspiration :) --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 06:45, 6 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
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:: I'd love one of these "To Do" lists for admins as well! :) I'm always forgetting what I need to do! --[[User:Jeff|Jeff]] ([[User talk:Jeff|talk]]) 02:35, 12 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::: There actually isn't much to do that needs admin permissions around here. Right I can think of only a handful of admin-specific tasks:<br />
:::* Keeping an eye on [[explain xkcd:Community portal/Admin requests]] for stuff other editors might need<br />
:::* Keeping an eye on [[:Category:Pages to delete]] (currently populated by {{tl|spam}}), delete the pages, block the spammers<br />
:::* Updating the main page and watching <br />
:::* Implementing any changes, agreed by the community, that require editing Mediawiki pages<br />
:::Maybe others will have other items to add to the list, but for the most part, the things that need to be done are available to all editors: adding the missing comic explanations, describing characters, categorizing, etc. --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 19:13, 12 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Checking the above lists, here are the current stats:<br />
* 0 [[Special:UncategorizedCategories]] (OK)<br />
* 2,000+ [[Special:UncategorizedFiles]], most of them being part of the [[Time]] comic<br />
* 2 [[Special:UncategorizedPages]], both related to the same [[Time]] comic<br />
* a few [[Special:WantedCategories]], all from Babel templates on userpages i believe.<br />
Just a FWIW or TWIMC. :) -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.210|173.245.51.210]] 16:11, 8 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
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== Date categories ==<br />
I'm not sure the "[[:Category:Comics by month|Comics by month]]", by weekday, etc. Will be much useful, unless for those interested in running some stats. It might be more interesting to have specific months, such as [[:Category:Comics from May 2011]] and so on. What do you think? --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 06:45, 6 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
: That was actually next for me: #time:year-month, but I wanted to study the globalization implications. I prefer over-categorizing rather than under-categorizing, since it's comparatively cheap. The assumption is that categories are the same as tags on the old site, and that mediawiki affords us some extra ways to automatically categorize pages in addition to the manual forms starting to emerge (by character, by subject, etc.) To paraphrase an old prof: you can't study what you don't measure; I've been wanting to see if, for example, Monday comics deal certain subjects, while Friday comics deal with another, etc. Not everybody's cup of tea, but of value perhaps to some, and insanely cheap to support both mentally and for the software. -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 13:51, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I also used it to find some date typos for Saturday/Sunday/Tuesday/Thursday comics, which should usually be empty - except for some early entries from livejournal... --[[User:Bpothier|B. P.]] ([[User talk:Bpothier|talk]]) 21:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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It does make it look a bit messy down by the categories... maybe we can skip one or two of these date categories, if people don't still find them useful? [[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] ([[User talk:St.nerol|talk]]) 21:22, 23 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Page names ==<br />
<br />
I think we should use the comic number '''and''' the title as the page name. Like so: "112: Baring My Heart". This would allow comics to be sorted by order in categories, but the pages would still have human-readable names for those of us who don't memorize all xkcd comic numbers ;) Thoughts? --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 07:23, 6 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
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:I agree, for another reason: for instance [[YouTube]] could be either the title of a page explaining how YouTube is referenced in xkcd, or the title of the explanation for comic #202 (titled "YouTube"). I don't know if I'm being clear here, but as we do not control the titles of the comics, that could create confusion with other pages. So using something like [[202: YouTube]] would ensure disambiguation without being really complicated or awkward... And actually prefixing the comic title with its number seems quite relevant to me.<br />
:<small>Additionally, that would solve potential problems such as [[Exoplanets]]: comic [[786]] or [[1071]]?</small><br />
:[[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 14:33, 6 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::Beat me to the punch; agreed. Numbers are unique and sequential, but not altogether that meaningful. Names are meaningful but (as we've seen) not unique. Some combination of both would be called for. We'd need to have the plain numbers redirect to the new topic (some double-redirects would need to be fixed up?) and the names would too (with at least one disambiguation page for now, and who knows: maybe more to come?) -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 13:55, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::Following up on the YouTube discussion above, I'm wondering if we should leverage namespaces more: main:topic is implicitly ''xkcd:topic'' (ie ''main:YouTube'' discusses the xkcd comic, while ''ref:YouTube'' is the place where the pop-culture reference of YouTube is discussed.) Either that, or some other name decoration, such as ''YouTube Explained'', or ... -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 13:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::: Agreed. Number and the name together. --[[User:Jeff|Jeff]] ([[User talk:Jeff|talk]]) 16:08, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::: Looks like we have consensus. I'll move the pages (I've been meaning to learn how to use [https://sourceforge.net/projects/mwclient mwclient] anyway :D) --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 18:01, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::: {{done}}, all current pages have been moved. However, I am not sure whether we should keep a space after the colon. What do you guys think? Should it be "112: Baring My Heart" or "112:Baring My Heart"? --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 18:20, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::::: Also, I just realized MediaWiki doesn't allow colons in image Filenames. One solution could be using something like [[:File:786. Exoplanets.png]] or [[:File:786-Exoplanets.png]], but then perhaps we'd have to change the pages name too, for consistency? I'll try to investigate what is the reasoning behind this restriction. --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 18:50, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::::: Ok, it seems like it's a matter of setting <code><nowiki>$wgIllegalFileChars = '';</nowiki></code> in LocalSettings.php (because it is set as <code>$wgIllegalFileChars = ':';</code> in DefaultSettings.php). <s>Jeff, could you do that please?</s> --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 19:13, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::::::: Nevermind, we will probably use a different naming pattern instead. --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 20:05, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::: I guess this is my bad for not ciming in on this discussion earlier, but I frankly think that the #: Name is a worse way of doing it just for the reasons of system resources. #:Name is fine from a user standpoint with the '''caveat''' that # and Name both redirect to #:Name. The problem is that this requires 2 redirects minimum for every comic, and the redirect itself takes a bit more time for each article to load, and (as I understand from wikipedia and its dislike of double redirects), every redirect adds to the system load. So if every article lookup by users (who will undoubtedly type either the number or the name, but rarely both) is a redirect, the system load is going to go up.<br />
<br />
::::::: As an aside, assuming Jeff is able to install the Cite Extension to add citation referencing (and even if he doesn't), I was expecting to try to create some sort of template in the concept of {{tl|cite comic}} where you could basically pass a single variable (e.g. the comic number) and it would create a proper citation for that comic. Similarly, this naming format will perhaps require a template something like {{tl|comicno}} with a comic number field just to create a quick link that is visibly appealing and links properly to the comic with that number. (ie: {comicno|18} would produce a link like "[[18: Snapple|Snapple]]" or something). I'm wondering though if anyone has any coding ideas for how we might accomplish this other than the hardcode all the titles into a template. [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 19:26, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::: PS: I did some mild digging on another wiki, ''Star Trek'''s Memory Alpha wiki, and although all of its episode articles are now titled "episode title (episode)" to avoid disambiguation, which allows you to an episode template by calling the title (which template appends "(episode)" to every entry), they DO have a title-display template: [http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Template:Titles Template:Titles] - with a template subpage for every single episode setting out how the mouseover text should be displayed. It would be possible to do such a template for xkcd just so that comic numbers can be crossreferenced to titles... [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 20:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::::::: (Hoping this is the right number of colons for proper indentation... ;-) Redirects are one thing, and while probably resulting in possibly two page serves (isn't it really just two hits to the db?) they're natively supported by mediawiki. Even so, if performance is proven to be a real (not just conjectured) problem, can we do something clever, perhaps, with transclusion? Either the number transcludes the title, or vice versa? Might be a case of pre-optimization, though; in the back of my mind, it seems that the rendering engine puts as much effort into transcluding to expand templates as it would to expand a redirect in situ: either case is just a query to the DB to expand the contents of said item. (Enough rambling; anybody have any concrete metrics on this?) -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 06:23, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::Hi folks. Just thought I'd state that redirects are completely safe. They don't add any noticeable loading time for the users and the extra resources used by the server are so minor that it's akin to the resources used to type a character in notepad. Pages are also aggressively cached (by default, anyway). If you're interested, the way redirects work in Mediawiki isn't like most other sites handle redirects. It's not loading a page that makes you load another page. Rather, all content is stored in an SQL database. The content is stored under a certain name (eg, "#: Hello World!"). A redirect simply tells Mediawiki to look for the content under a different name. Slightly more work for the server (don't worry, they can handle it), but the page is delivered to the user in roughly the same period of time (if we want to be technical, the page will be slightly larger, due to the "Redirected from whatever" line added to the page (which is mostly there for the purpose of making it easier to fix incorrect redirects). I don't have metrics, but can assure you that it's almost no difference in the end result. {{User:Omega/sig}} 09:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I've been thinking about this some more, and I believe we should choose a different pattern for the page names.<br />
* First, use another separator between comic number and name, since colon is forbidden in files. A simple alternative would be "Comic title (number)", as in [[Michael Phelps (1092)]]. This would additionally allow us to use the {{w|Help:Pipe trick|pipe trick}} when linking to a comic, since content in parenthesis is automatically stripped out: <nowiki>[[Michael Phelps (1092)|]]</nowiki> results in [[Michael Phelps (1092)|Michael Phelps]]. Another effect of this is that by dropping the colon naming scheme we would remove ambiguity with the namespace system, which also uses colons to separate namespaces from pagenames.<br />
* Second, we should probably follow IronyChef's suggestion above and move them to a specific namespace, such as [[Comic:Michael Phelps (1092)]]. Other namespaces could be added for more topics, such as [[Character:Cueball]], [[xkcd:Randall]] (or [[Meta:Randall]]), [[Topic:Velociraptors]], etc. Not only we would be able to generate lists of pages without resorting to categories (which have to be added manually), but we would get lot's of "Random X" for free (random comic, random character, random topic, etc.)<br />
What do you guys think? --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 14:29, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:P.s. - Proper category sorting of the comics would be dealt with by the {{tl|comic}} template, which would also pad the numbers with zeroes to ensure 100 comes after 2, etc.<br />
<br />
::+1 on the parens... (but does that mean my recent double-redirect-fixups have been for naught? {{xkcd|541|(grin)}}) ... I couldn't put my finger on it and didn't articulate it earlier, but the fact that colon needed special attention by the software left me a bit uneasy (there must be a reason for them doing that, like namespaces perhaps) so using parentheses-es-es (as {{xkcd|297|long}} as we {{xkcd|859|close}} them {{explain|312|properly}}) seems more the mediawiki way. -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 15:03, 9 August 2012 (UTC) (I know you folks don't like my propensity to (over?)categorize, but <nowiki>[[Category:Parentheses]]</nowiki> is just too irresistible... ;-)<br />
<br />
:I think, that all of this seem unnecessary complication to me. I don't see any problem with the current system. I think something like [[1092: Michael Phelps]] flows well, is quite readable and easy to insert "as is" in the text (see the links to other comics in [[1048: Emotion]] for instance). As I understand, we would want the image files to be titled exactly the same way as their corresponding article; why, where is the need for that? (to me the simplest way, and most relevant maybe, would be to name them exactly as they are on xkcd.com; maybe with a prefix, like "xkcd - ", so that it cannot mess with other existing images such as from Commons).<br />
:I don't see the point of creating namespaces such as "Character", "Topic", etc.; what is the problem with [[Beret Guy]], [[Randall Munroe]], [[Velociraptors]], and such? with namespaces one will have to put each topic in one box (and one only), where will you put things like [[Stick figure]] or [[My Hobby]] or any other thing that will pop up without clearly belonging to one of these boxes? ''[[1077: Home Organization|just give up]]!'' :-)<br />
:About the "Random X", I like the idea that on xkcd.com, you can get a random ''comic'' (because that's all what is there), but in here you can get a random whatever: you may get a comic explanation, a character, a topic or anything, because in here there is all that.<br />
:I don't think the colon in the comic page names will pose any problem, it cannot mess with anything as long as it is preceded by a number only.<br />
:''In the end,'' I think that adding the number in the comic page names was a good choice, because there would have been real issues otherwise, but for now I would say : "don't fix what is not broken", KISS, and "just give up". :-)<br />
:[[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 16:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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:: I have to agree with this. The existing page names are fine in my book, and I don't see any benefits of renaming them all (again). Concerning the random, though, I mentioned an extension in proposals that would allow us to choose a "random page in a category". I don't really care one way or another about character topics. Seem like a lot of maintenance when we don't even have a quarter of the comics explained yet, but whatever. Concerning the image names, I think that simply using the same name as it appears on xkcd is fine. Images are a bit of a "backend", that people don't usually search for (rather, they'd search for the comic and find the image on that page). As well, since all images are hosted on xkcd, they won't be any file name conflicts amongst the comics. {{User:Omega/sig}} 18:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Good points (and puns!), all of you. I'd like to address a few specific points (I'll highlight the key takeaways for your convenience):<br />
:::* '''I still prefer parenthesis''' for the simple reason that colons mess with the concept of namespaces (not that it has any effect on the software, which can cope quite well; I'm speaking from a user point of view). Besides, one of the reasons I proposed for having the number first was automatic category sorting, but that backfired (cf. #2 vs. #100).<br />
:::* Re rationale for having image files titled like the comics is that it would allow automatic image inclusion via the {{tl|comic}} template. However, having the prefix is not crucial for that (hadn't thought of this before), so I'll go ahead and remove my suggestion above to allow colons in filenames.<br />
:::* Note that there's no problem with "conflicts" with Commons images: an image uploaded here simply takes precedence regarding an image uploaded to commons under the same name (e.g. [[:File:Irony.jpg]] vs. [[commons:File:Irony.jpg]]). That said, while external conflicts aren't a problem, internal ones are (e.g. [[Exoplanets]]). That, coupled with the "it's just a backend" point made by Omega, is a good argument to '''use the original filenames''' (also, less overhead when uploading a new comic)<br />
:::* I understand the argument against a single primary way to classify a page using namespaces. The category system is more flexible as it allows many-to-many relationships. However, I must point out that the examples you give are no problem at all: [[Meta:Stick figure]] and [[Topic:My Hobby]] ;) So '''I'm still not convinced that using custom namespaces is a bad idea''' or a lost cause or that it won't scale up well. Besides, it makes it very clear what a reader will find on that page (explainxkcd.com/wiki/Topic:Velociraptors is a pretty self-explanatory url). And again, it allows us to use the random feature that is natively implemented on mediawiki, rather than an extension. And "random whatever" is still available, of course :)<br />
:::* IronyChef, by all means, please create [[:Category:Parentheses]] :D<br />
::: --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 20:05, 9 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::If we're going to use the numbers in the titles, it seems logical to have the number come first so that comics are essentially sortable by number rather than alphabetically by title; although this probably can be taken care of by changing the sort title, thoug this could be tedious.<br />
<br />
:::I don't support new namespaces for comics and characters and whatnot. I don't see what it adds to the wiki, and it just makes the links to each comic page ''even longer'' (no one will EVER correctly search for '''Comic:Snapple (18)''' on their first attempt).<br />
<br />
:::I am not claiming to be an expert on redirects. My comment was based on wikipedia pages like {{w|Wikipedia:Double redirects}} where it clearly suggests in the lead that double redirects "waste server resources". I assume this applies (at to a lesser degree) to single redirects. They may not be needless waste like double redirects, but they they do use resources. Granted wikipedia has far larger servers and much more traffic, so it may be more relevant to them than here, but it still would appear to be a resource issue; Database queries are still resource hogs, even if they are simple ones. Not suggesting they aren't safe, but if every comic load is basically a redirect, that is still two queries every time instead of just the occasional one. I'm fine with it; I'm just pointing out the issue. [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 16:20, 10 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::The reason that double redirects are bad is that linking a redirect to another redirect (a double redirect) causes the first redirect to simply display the content of the second redirect (rather than actually redirecting the page). This appears as simply an arrow and a link (a soft redirect). It uses more system resources because an actual page has to be loaded and displayed, forcing the user to manually click the link and display the proper page (whereas a single redirect would load the correct page and display it). So in other words, a double redirect forces two pages to be loaded, while a single redirect only loads one page, more or less the same as if you went to the actual page title. {{User:Omega/sig}} 21:35, 10 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::: Also, regarding the sorting argument for using numbers first: I was the one who originally proposed that, but I overlooked the fact that sorting won't work unless we use padding (e.g. "0001: Comic title"), which is kind of a hack. MediaWiki supports category sort keys natively, so we should be taking advantage of them rather than relying on a specific page title format to achieve the same effect.<br />
::::: As for the namespaces, I think I've presented my arguments for that above; let me know if any of them are unclear. I accept that one may disagree with them, but not that there ''aren't'' any benefits. Note that '''nobody''' will correctly seach for whatever page title we use, unless we use only the numbers as the final title, which I think we all agree is not desirable. --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 11:25, 11 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::Thanks for the double-redirect explanation, Omega. To Waldir; I think people would also correctly search for Comic Titles, at times. Some more than others, for sure. But if you are on XKCD reading a comic that has a title printed, and you want to come here and read the explanation, You would most likely search for either the number or the title that is displayed at xkcd.com. That said, if it's not a resource hog, and we can find a GOOD way to create links to comics easily (ie: I can type in {explain|123} and actually get a proper looking link to that comic's page, I'm cool with that. I really think it will add a lot of time to the edit process to have to manually type in 123: Title for every link to another comic. [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 14:32, 13 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Comic Display - another new template ==<br />
<br />
I see that the latest comics have changed over to {{tl|comicbox}} from {{tl|comic}}. This might be in response to today's tall narrow comic. I don't see any recent discussions about the {{tl|comicbox}} template. We really need to come to some form of consensus on the comic display issue. I am really not a fan of the {{tl|comicbox}} template, as I arrive at the homepage today and I don't understand what I'm seeing. There is no indication that the text on the right is the Explanation. I wasn't sure if part of it was title text or not. I figured it out, but it's not the easiest thing to see. I also don't think the navbuttons jutting right up against the top of the comic display box looks good.<br />
<br />
Eithe way, where I'm going with this is that I think we need to come to a consensus on the form and template used for comic pages. If we choose comicbox, or comic or some other template, it's all good; but we should be editing ONE template to get it working and looking the way we want; rather than bouncing between many templates and creating new ones. [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 16:26, 10 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:Yeah, I was really confused at first, and scrambled through the discussions trying to find what happened. To be honest, I'm more of a fan of the {{tl|comic}} template, with the explanation under a header explaining so. Not to mention with {{tl|comicbox}}, I'm suddenly unsure of what to do with the transcripts. For comparison, [http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1093:_Forget&oldid=6199 here] is the {{tl|comic}} template, while [http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1093:_Forget&oldid=6209 here] is the {{tl|comicbox}} template. At any rate, no matter what template we're using (I personally prefer {{tl|comic}}, but don't really care that much provided all comics use the same template), I agree that we need some kind of consensus to determine how we're formatting the page. {{User:Omega/sig}} 21:31, 10 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::Ditto on the confusion (augmented by the confusion of finding where the pertinent discussion has gotten off to; they seem to slip from page to page between visits... ) Anyway, I'm guessing this is a ''de-gustibus'' matter, but regardless of the respective virtues of either template, to my eye the template today's comic was changed to has {{explain|1070|a couple}} cosmetic shortcomings: <br />
::* The typeface is larger than normal. Just a personal preference, but it should be scaled 100% vs adjacent normal wiki text; readers can change the level of zoom if that's too small. Also, <br />
::* the image is vertically centered, so in the case of a disproportionately long explanation (like today's) it appears too far down the page; it really needs to be top-aligned, with the title text close underneath it. Further, <br />
::* for this vertical layout, there's a lot of wasted vertical space when the explanation is so much longer than the image. Rather than having two rigid columns, have we considered '''float:left''' or '''float:right''' style attributes on the image, so that whatever text is left flows to fill the entire space below the image?<br />
:: Finally, to tie this all up with a bow, (and perhaps raising an issue that may have been raised before; I don't recall, because of the shifting locations of discussions hereabouts) ... Is there a need for images to always be shown at 100% size, especially for the more extremely sized ones? Seems to me that the images here really only need to fulfill a refresher role, and clicks through the image should take the reader to the full-sized image on xkcd.com. Legally, I know we have the right to host the images here. But morally, it seems like we shouldn't be taking too much traffic away from xkcd.com as it is RM's bread and butter. Our value-add is the in the form of explanations: long as we can visually tie these explanations with the comic (by having something bigger than a thumbnail, but somewhat smaller than full size, especially for odd-shaped ones) I think we're on the positive side. Thotz? -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 05:23, 11 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::I agree with you on all points, although I'm really not a fan of having the text either beside or under the comic. I'd rather it be the same in all cases. In which case, having the text beside the comic won't do, as wide comics wouldn't be very supportive of that. Also, if the explanation is considerably longer than the comic, it just looks a bit strange to me. Float left/right would fix that, but would be a bit harder to implement with the title text (eg, if the title text and image are inside a float left div, does that div have a fixed width or does a long title text push it over?). All in all, I'd rather the text always be below the comic. It's consistent and less problematic. Regarding the size of comics, I'd rather we use the full size in all cases except the "large" comics (defined as the comics that are shown at a reduced size on xkcd itself, such as [[1079: United Shapes]]). Why? Because when I'm reading an explanation to a comic I don't understand, I'm constantly referencing the explanation with the comic itself. Having to open a new tab each time would make that a bit less convenient. {{User:Omega/sig}} 06:38, 11 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::::For visual experimentation, I've made the theoretically uncontroversial changes of text size (it's now expressed as relative percentage rather than absolute px) and I made the image top-aligned, so comics like {{explain|1093}} show the image near the top of the explanation, despite the explanation being many multiples of that image's height; we can change that back if we don't like them. There are other changes I'd like to make (see above) but I'll wait for general agreement on that (not to mention which template to use.) -- [[User:IronyChef|IronyChef]] ([[User talk:IronyChef|talk]]) 15:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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:::::To respond to all of the previous comments; I echo IronyChef's thought - I built into {{tl|comic}} an imagesize attribute because I believe that the comic should be a managable size on this site; generally not more than say 400px; this creates a "click to enlarge" link which takes the user to the imgae's page. Although I previously thought that a balance needs to be kept because people may start coming to the wiki to read xkcd in the first instance instead of xkcd.com, I also agree with Omega's point that it's potentially unfair to Randall to entice traffic away from xkcd.com. This strengthens my belief that larger comics should be kept to a reasonable size.<br />
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:::::Not sure if I said it in this thread, I think we have to look at the purpose of the box itself. In my eyes, the box is designed (like an infobox) to basically show the user the basic facts. Not user-added material or encyclopedia text. The box, in my view, is there to present all of the info about the comic that actually comes from xkcd. The image, the alt text, the title, date and number. Adding the explanation in the box basically makes the explanation look official as part of the comic. The primary content of this site is the explanations. If anything should go under proper wiki-format headers, it's that (in my opinion). The transcript is technically official content, but as I've said elsewhere, in my view, the transcript is secondary info that the comic already contains; it doesn't need to be in the infobox. IronyChef has indentified and fixed a lot of my minor cosmetic issues with the comicbox template, and there are others I don't like either (the title font is a little too weak and the top of the box is touching the bottom of the nav buttons. Don't like those, but again, easily fixable).<br />
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::::: I also think while there may be instances like the "Forget" comic which is a list-form comic where having a long vertical list explanation works, a long vertical list is often harder to read and follow than a full-page-width explanation. (even "Forget" has each line of explanation end up being several lines long in {{tl|comicbox}} format.) Worse, the potential to want to fit in the box may limit users from adding to explanations which we shouldn't encourage. If the explanation is twice as long as the comic, there's nothing wrong with that, and it shouldn't look bad by going inside the template. I appreciate the attempt that the verticle comicbox makes to not waste space (using the two-column method) but I don't think this is the way to do it. I think shrinking the comic (and accepting that there will be space on either side) is the best way. As I say, 375px or 400px seem like logical limiters for most comics. This is explainxkcd, so you shouldn't have to scroll way down to get to the explanation. I too sometimes like to view the comic and explain at the same time to check notes as Omega suggests, but I can do that by control+click or shift+clicking the image to enlarge, and comparing in separate windows by tiling them or just switching back and forth - with a larger comic, you'd have to scroll up and down to read both the comic and the explanation anyway. I find I lose my place in the text when I do that. alt+Tabbing for me generally is easier to keep my place in both windows.<br />
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:::::The one thing from {{tl|comicbox}} that I do like is that the box is shaded slightly bluegray. I like the separation that creates; on the other hand, xkcd.com has comics posted on white; does it hurt the integrity of any comics to have them posted on blue-grey instead of white? I'd consider changing the background of {{tl|comic}} to a blue-gray (though perhaps lighter than the one on comicbox) if people like that. That's my thoughts[[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 15:10, 13 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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{{outdent|:::::}}<br />
{{tl|ComicBox}} just got a major redesign. It looks more like {{tl|comic}}, but with the addition of a vertical comic mode. Also, bear in mind that {{tl|comic}} doesn't use white for the background. For comics like "Forget", take a look at [[Forget comicbox]]. Looks ok? <span style="font-size: 90%; background: #eee; padding: 5px 5px 5px 5px; border: 2px solid #ddd; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-left-radius: 15px; border-bottom-left-radius: 15px;">&nbsp;[[User:Grep|grep]]</span><span style="font-size: 90%; background: #eee; padding: 5px 5px 5px 5px; border: 2px solid #ddd; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px;">[[User_talk:Grep|talk]]&nbsp;</span><span style="font-size: 90%; background: #eee; padding: 5px 5px 5px 5px; border: 2px solid #ddd; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-right-radius: 15px; border-bottom-right-radius: 15px;">15:27, 20 August 2012 (UTC)</span><br />
<br />
:As noted on [[explain xkcd:Community portal/Proposals#Comic Templates]], there is no need to start a new thread there there there is already a thread on the topic here (which you've posted to). Also, if your post was "which template should we use when?" it's not really a "proposal" for the proposals page, and better fits here under coordination.<br />
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:That said, I thought this topic was fairly well resolved. Jeff endorsed {{tl|Comic}} in the [[#Header_template]] discussion on this page, and this subsequent discussion seemed to resolve as well with no real consensus that a change from {{tl|comic}} was necessary or beneficial. I don't see the benefit of continuing to build new templates that basially duplicate existing templates with one extra function (vertical mode). That could have been built into the existing template, if it were deemed necessary.<br />
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:I personally think there are still pluses and minuses to doing things vertically; It looks a little cluttered to have the comic up on one size and the explanation on the other. If you don't have a high-resolution desktop or you want a non-maximized window, there may not be much space for the explanation which may end up with two or three words per line and be hard to read and annoying. "Forget" was a comic featuring a long list; this made for a very long listed explanation. Most long comics will not have explanations longer than the comic, and we'll have a lot of whitespace to the right of the comic. It just looks cluttered to me. I like having the navbar centered above the comic, not the page (and also in the enclosed comic box). That's personal preference though. I think the better design for vertical comics (is just to reduce their size and put them in the standard box. They otherwise take up too much space. [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 16:48, 20 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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*I am not a fan of the discontinuity that comicbox creates as the explanation runs longer than the image. I also feel that we should focus on improving the existing {{tl|comic}} instead of further developing new templates. - [[User:Shine|Shine]] ([[User talk:Shine|talk]]) 21:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Template for New Comics ==<br />
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To clarify, I'm not talking about a template like {{tl|comic}} or {{tl|comicbox}}, but rather a form to cut/paste for new comics. I'm rather new to large editing of MediaWiki pages, so I'm interested in learning of better ways of doing things.<br />
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Recently, I've been copy/pasting [[User:Blaisepascal/newcomictemplate]] to set up the basic form of the page, then editing the various sections. This ensures I get the major bits. I still have to copy/paste the transcript from xkcd.com, fill in the {{tl|comic}} template, and make the number and title redirects by hand.<br />
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Is there a better way? Is there anything my template is missing? [[User:Blaisepascal|Blaisepascal]] ([[User talk:Blaisepascal|talk]]) 14:06, 21 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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:I've created a ruby script that can be given a comic number and it will spit out a text file with the comic template filled out, the transcript, and the comic discussion template. I've finally gotten it to the point that it is usable, so that's why I'm talking about it. It still doesn't pull explanations from the blog, but that's a whole ball of wax in and of itself. I'm on Linux so it's easy to run it and have it spit out files, I assume on Windows if you have ruby installed there is a way to run ruby scripts from the command prompt. Can't tell you where things will pop out, probably in the directory you run it in, but I haven't tested it on Windows yet. I'm also continuing to work on it, so don't assume that any version you download is the final product. Oh, it also spits out the redirect line you put in the number and title pages so you can just copy/paste that.<br />
:I made it because I was going to drive myself insane making hundreds of pages without some kind of automation. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 07:24, 25 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::{{tl|create}} was created as a template for the comic list so that it could be autoloaded into comics by linking from [[List of all comics]]. That functionality doesn't seem to be working, unfortunately. For that reason, I added a "transcript" of the create text as documentation on that template. If you goto {{tl|create}}, you will find a template for new comic creation. [[User:TheHYPO|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO|talk]]) 20:20, 27 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== The name of the ponytail character ==<br />
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I remember the community having a name for the female ponytail character (I don't recall if there is a male ponytail character, but in the interest of being complete). Was it simply Ponytail?<br />
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In any case, she seems to recur enough to deserve her own Category:Comics featuring ... page. But I don't want to go create it without knowing what we can agree on is her name. So, pony (wow, didn't intend that pun) up your 2 cents. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 17:28, 20 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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:This comic http://xkcd.com/322/ calls a ponytail'ed female Joanna. Is this the same character as ponytail? She might be different. Community input please. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 01:26, 23 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::It sounds plausible. Few of the characters are named, and it looks like Ponytail (compare, for example, Elaine Roberts as an adult, who has light hair, but doesn't wear it in a ponytail). The one concern is that in 322, she is clearly acquainted with Black Hat, and in 405 she appears to be friends with Danish, yet Black Hat and Danish don't know each other -- unless he tracked her down via Joanna... [[User:Blaisepascal|Blaisepascal]] ([[User talk:Blaisepascal|talk]]) 04:41, 23 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== The name of Black Hat's girlfriend ==<br />
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[[Black Hat]] has a girlfriend, introduced in [[377: Journal 2]]. She has thicker hair than Megan, and is seen (in [[405: Journal 3]] to be friends with [[Ponytail]]. Is there community-accepted name for her?<br />
:: No, not yet. She seems to have a personality similar to [[Black Hat]] himself --[[User:Jeff|Jeff]] ([[User talk:Jeff|talk]]) 15:48, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::I don't really want to create a "Category:Comics featuring Black Hat's girlfriend" if there is a better solution, that's all. [[User:Blaisepascal|Blaisepascal]] ([[User talk:Blaisepascal|talk]]) 15:57, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::::In my own head I've been calling her Summer because she looks like how Randall draws Summer Glau (not a good argument, granted), and in some of the comics she shows up she reminds me of Summer's characters. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 17:41, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::::Or we could call her Dearest or Darling or Danish http://xkcd.com/515/ [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 20:32, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
::::::OK, I've gone with [[Danish]]. [[User:Blaisepascal|Blaisepascal]] ([[User talk:Blaisepascal|talk]]) 22:18, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::::::P.S. I love you for that. You have my eternal respect. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 22:35, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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Also, now someone needs to update the Characters nav box to include Danish. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 22:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
:I found the template on my own (aren't I a [[1032|grown up professional]]?) and updated it. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 22:53, 22 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Can we turn off page creation for non-logged in users ==<br />
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I'm not very familiar with mediawiki, so I don't know if this would be hard or not. But, it would stop the drive-by spam attacks (the ones that don't create accounts anyway, such nice bots).<br />
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My secondary goal in doing this would be to get [[Special:Contributions/72.252.145.183|72.252.145.183]] and [[Special:Contributions/207.204.86.3|207.204.86.3]] to make accounts so that there is a way to get a hold of them, give them some feedback, and have them stop adding/spamming spurious categories. Both of them are creating pages with poor/non-existent explanations, sections for the transcript but missing the transcript, haphazardly adding pre-existing categories and adding tons of one-off categories which do nothing to enhance explain xkcd.<br />
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[[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 19:02, 13 September 2012 (UTC)<br />
:Tag any such comics with {{[[Template:Comic-stub|Comic-stub]]}} and you or someone else can fix it ^^--[[User:Relic|Relic]] ([[User talk:Relic|talk]]) 00:01, 24 September 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::I guess you succeeded then ;) I have learned from my mistakes that I made as an anon ([[Special:Contributions/Btx40|take a look]])<br />
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::Why didn't you post on [[User talk:72.252.145.183]] or [[User talk:207.204.86.3]] (IPs have talk pages too)? I would have noticed it on either of them. It made me think that this community was more hostile than Wikipedia, which I also have [[wikipedia:User:Btx40|an account]] for --[[User:Btx40|Btx40]] ([[User talk:Btx40|talk]]) 21:14, 11 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
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== Tagline categories! ==<br />
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It finally struck me that there's that great line sitting top-right on the xkcd site. Yes the [[tagline]]. So, I've created pages for [[:Category:Language|Language]], [[:Category:Romance|Romance]], [[:Category:Math|Math]] already existed. But, I don't have time right now to go hunting down examples of [[:Category:Sarcasm|Sarcasm]]. Can I enlist the help of all the beautiful editors here to go tagging crazy? (Ok, not crazy like insane, but please do comb through everything for these) [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 19:47, 22 October 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Image updates on xkcd ==<br />
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Once in a while, Randall changes the image of a particular comic (usually after someone here spotted an error!); for instance, that is the case for [http://xkcd.com/1122/ xkcd 1122 on Electoral Precedents]. It would be nice to still be able to see the original image(s) here as well as the updated version, as the discussion usually references the previous version(s) and therefore sometimes doesn't make sense without the original image in those cases. Also, consider this as a mild suggestion to update the mentioned image on its explanation page. Sorry if I've put this in the wrong place... --[[User:Jay|Jay]] ([[User talk:Jay|talk]]) 14:54, 29 October 2012 (UTC)<br />
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:For these most recent comics, someone usually uploads the version that goes public at midnight, and then corrections are uploaded on top of that. As part of the MediaWiki software, you can click on the image, which will take you to its file page, which allows you to see all the versions of the image back to its first creation. I, personally, am not sure if it's possible to link directly to a previous version, but it is there at least.<br />
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:Unfortunately, due to an image resizing bug, (that we all hope is being worked on, but it's been months with no progress and no word of work or progress, so hope is dwindling) for larger images you won't be able to see it, until you click on the broken file link which will just take you to the image.<br />
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:Hope that helps some. --[[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 16:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== The Great Spam Attack Of Thanksgiving 2012 ==<br />
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I believe I have now dealt with all the spam that has accumulated on the wiki. I've gone through Recent Changes and personally checked every anonymous edit since 5 this morning, and looked through every new page created. If I've missed something, please edit the page and put {{tl|spam}} at the top. Thank you to all the new editors that stepped up and went to work in the trenches while the rest of us were off stuffing our faces. I think special thanks goes out to [[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] and [[User:TheOriginalSoni|TheOriginalSoni]]. I believe what happened is, the first major attack was met with a tepid response of about a month's temp block for all the IPs. But this time, for the flagrant vandalizers they are now on an indefinite ban.<br />
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Please, as you continue to notice spam or vandalization, use the {{tl|spam}} template, or add [[:Category:Pages to delete]] to the page (in the event that it's a newly created page). Leave a comment in your edit summary about vandalization clean up and someone with the power to, will deal with it.<br />
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--[[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]]<span title="I'm an admin. I can help.">_a</span> ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 06:38, 24 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
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:Marked a wee bit that you missed. Typical, I take a day-long trip into China and an unholy mess of spam happens. May I suggest captchas for all anonymous edits for now? I would also like to get all the explanations done, or at least the ones from the blog, so that we can get the /wiki/ out of the URL to throw some of the spammers. The wall-of-text spammers all seem to include links to spam on other poor abused wikis, and I've noticed that all of those wikis also have a /wiki/ somewhere in there URL. It probably won't stop the new anon spammer, but we could probably restrict page creation to registered users only once we're done filling in all the old XKCD pages to cull those twats out too. [[User:Davidy22|<span title="I want you."><u><font color="purple" size="2px">David</font><font color="green" size="3px">y</font></u><sup><font color="indigo" size="1px">22</font></sup></span>]][[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>(talk)</tt>]] 09:27, 24 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
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:I have again dealt with the second wave of spam this Thanksgiving holiday (in the U.S. It's the only thing I can think that would be the cause.) and protected a few pages that seem to be repeat targets. If this is any indication of what major US holidays are like we need to get the administration (*ahem* Jeff) to delegate more controls to more users, and more A.I. spam fighting than we currently have (none). There has to be tricks that Wikipedia is using to fight spam. If we get this much, I can't imagine what the wikipedia servers have to daily stand up against, they must have spam fighting tricks, and not just hordes of people that can delete new pages that anonymous spam bots create. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]]<span title="I'm an admin. I can help.">_a</span> ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 07:13, 25 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::Wikipedia has cluebot, which looks at page blanking and text insertion by anonymous users and reverts suspicious behavior automagically. I could ask cluebot's creator if we could lift the code for use here. It'll be like XERXES.ai, except it'll look for spam instead of spelling errors. [[User:Davidy22|<span title="I want you."><u><font color="purple" size="2px">David</font><font color="green" size="3px">y</font></u><sup><font color="indigo" size="1px">22</font></sup></span>]][[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>(talk)</tt>]] 07:16, 25 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::Aight, so Cluebot runs off a [https://github.com/cluenet/cluebotng core engine] with a dataset of previous vandalism to work from. We can set the files up on a raspberry pi or something, leave it running and connected to the web and feed it a backlog of past spam to teach it what to look for. Gonna do it after this hellish pile of work is over, unless someone wants to ninja me again. [[User:Davidy22|<span title="I want you."><u><font color="purple" size="2px">David</font><font color="green" size="3px">y</font></u><sup><font color="indigo" size="1px">22</font></sup></span>]][[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>(talk)</tt>]] 07:50, 25 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
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:::Cluebot sounds like a wonderful thing to have around here. When I have free time I might try to develop a basic bot that catches the basic kinds of spam and vandals we see here. (Spammers create a user account, create a random page and link to a random page on the internet; Vandals almost always leave an 18 character mixed lower/upper alphanumeric comment and are anonymous, that's unique enough it should be easily catchable)<br />
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==Trivia and transcript placement==<br />
The placement of the trivia sections are not consistent on the wiki; sometimes they are placed above the transcript and sometimes below.<br />
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The trivia sections are often fun to read, and a good complement to the explanation. On the other hand I have a hard time imagining people coming here to read transcripts (I remember someone suggested collapsable boxes for them). I'm afraid trivia sections below the transcript "disappears" and sometimes won't be noticed at all (especially if the transcript is long). Therefore I propose that trivia sections should follow the explanation, and that the transcripts should be at the bottom of the page.<br />
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Another reason for this is that the dividing line between explanation and trivia is not always clear. The end of the explanations tend to accumulate trivia-like information. The natural thing is to just "crop off" a trivia section, where deemed appropriate, and not to move stuff to and fro around the block of transcript. –St.nerol (talk) 15:15, 6 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:I agree that trivia sections, if present, should come before the transcript. By the way, I think this thread would be more appropriate for the Coordination section of the community portal. If you agree, please move it there. Waldir (talk) 16:32, 6 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Moved from Proposals to Coordination! –[[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] ([[User talk:St.nerol|talk]]) 23:02, 6 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:If an explanation contains trivia, that's an issue with the trivia being in the wrong place. Trivia is supposed to contain information that's only tangentially relevant to the comic at hand, and should be kept to the end of the page to keep the rest of the page free of clutter. Also, the comic discussion is at the bottom of every explanation page, but that doesn't seem to have deterred anyone from finding in. We could fix up some kind of collapse box for the transcripts though, since they do tend to be unneeded for most comics. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u><font color="purple" title="I want you">David</font><font color="green" size="3px">y</font></u><font color="indigo" size="4px">²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 00:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Alright, I've done a mockup for what the transcript collapse box could look like. It's in our sandbox, like?'''[[User:Davidy22|<u><font color="purple" title="I want you">David</font><font color="green" size="3px">y</font></u><font color="indigo" size="4px">²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 01:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
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::It looks good!<br />
::I'm not sure it is so easy to differentiate between tangentially relevant, more relevant, and explanatory information. I think there will always be a hazy zone of borderline examples. (By the way, should the explanation/trivia division be based on how ''relevant'' the information is, or on how ''explanatory'' it is?)<br />
::Now that we're getting a collapsible box; where should we place it? I still don't think it is logical to have it between explanation and trivia (if present), but it will matter less. Maybe we should move it up to the top again? –[[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] ([[User talk:St.nerol|talk]]) 10:24, 8 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::Trivia in most wikis is reserved for all the junk that doesn't add value to the main purpose of the article. In our case, that would be information that doesn't serve to explain comics, which is what people who visit the site come here looking for. The transcript is useful for cases where an image is ambiguous or easily mistaken, although it's not entirely needed for every comic. If the trivia section ever contains anything that enhances the comic explanation more than the transcript does, it's in the wrong section.<br />
:::The transcript template is probably going to have to get OK'ed by all the other editors round here before we make it a thing. It's quite a big change to make, and we'll have to change every existing page if we want to add it. We'd probably put it where we usually put the transcript if we do add it in though. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|purple|David}}<font color=green size=3px>y</font></u><font color=indigo size=4px>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 10:44, 8 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Yeah, I hope that the other guys turns up and says something too. Still, the trivia/transcript placement is not standardized, so we need to decide together what's more natural. <br />
::::*Do we want the transcript in a box?<br />
::::*Do we want it on the bottom of the page, or directly below the explanation, or on the top of the page?<br />
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::::It ''is'' a borderland between explaining a comic and giving background information, connections to other comics, etc. There's no borderland between those and transcript. Also, all trivia sections I've seen so far has enhanced the explanations more than the transcript. (Probably because I didn't feel need to read it). –[[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] ([[User talk:St.nerol|talk]]) 16:10, 8 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
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::::If one actually needs/wants to read the transcript, one presumably wants to compare it directly with how the comic looks. That would be the good reason to place the box close to the comic. –[[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] ([[User talk:St.nerol|talk]]) 16:12, 8 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::<strike>Sorry I dropped off the face of the planet for a while there. The run up to Spring Break nearly killed me (that's not as figurative as you'd think). I'll write a proper response in the morning, or late afternoon, after I've had enough sleep to recover from ~2 weeks of ~3 hours of sleep a night. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]]<span title="I'm an admin. I can help.">_a</span> ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 08:58, 9 March 2013 (UTC)</strike><br />
<br />
::::I think that Trivia belongs at the bottom of the page. We didn't start with putting transcripts on the explanation page, so there isn't a law passed down from the founders to let us know how to slaughter our sheep as sacrifice (wait, that's something else). However, in keeping with Wikipedia's tradition, we put tangentially related information into its own category at the bottom of the page.<br />
<br />
::::What defines tangentially related? Well, most of our editors seem to have a good grasp on it, so I didn't think it was necessary to spell out hard and fast rules. I think the group of people that read xkcd frequently are also prone to become draconian, pedantic, rules lawyers, so I hesitate to suggest that we need to impose too much more structure than what we can glean from Wikipedia's many years of existence. This is how I categorize it:<br />
::::*The explanation, which is the main point of the site, should explain all cultural, technological, mathematical, scientific, visual, and linguistic gags that Randall includes.<br />
::::*The transcript, which helps to ensure that people aren't mis-reading the comic. This is also valuable for accessibility, as blind people cannot read images (not yet, OCR isn't that good), which is why I think Randall should publish transcript data as he posts the comics. So, I support the creation of a transcript when the comic first posts, but about a week later someone should go back and replace it with the transcript that Randall publishes so that anything we interpret incorrectly will be corrected.<br />
::::*Discussion. Since we transclude the discussion onto the explanation page anything that comes up as a result of the comic will often be commented on here. E.g. "Did you guys see Reddit blew up after Randall called them out in this comic? [link]"<br />
::::*And lastly trivia. My template test for this one is "Is this really important trivia, but it doesn't add one hoot to the explanation? Then it should go here." What jumps to my mind every time I think of this is [[Click and Drag]]. That is a prime example of a trivia section. It doesn't explain the comic, but it is meta-information about the comic.<br />
<br />
::::Why last? Because if the community cares about the points of trivia someone will bring it up. So that content already exists on the page. Duplicating that and putting it up higher makes no sense. What's even worse is having an Explanation, content directly about the comic; Trivia, an interlude with some information that's fun to know and you can stump people at xkcd meet-ups but otherwise useless; and Transcripts, which is directly about the comic again.<br />
<br />
::::I would say that Trivia should actually go at the bottom of the page, but the transclusion of the discussion page makes that ugly to my eye. But it should go underneath the Transcript. Not all of the world are "fully functional" "Average" (capital 'A' Average) and "Normal" (capital 'N' Normal) humans, and consideration needs to be spent on them. And the transcript is more relevant information about the comic than any trivia is. If there is trivia that is more relevant than the transcript, it should be worked into the explanation. If a transcript gets long and you believe scrolling is a tedious, laborious task that only proto-humans had to deal with, then add a <code><nowiki>__TOC__</nowiki></code> (the TOC is ugly because of the comic discussion template, which is another discussion) underneath the comic template.<br />
<br />
::::--[[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]]<span title="I'm an admin. I can help.">_a</span> ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 12:02, 14 March 2013 (UTC) <br />
<br />
:: I think the transcript could be integrated into [[template:comic]], instead of being a separate template, and use a softer and more neutral color (light gray, for example) in the heading. Apart from these details, I agree with the collapsing of the transcript, and being collapsed, its placement isn't really problematic. Right under the comic sounds ok to me. --[[User:Waldir|Waldir]] ([[User talk:Waldir|talk]]) 02:04, 10 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::I think this would be a good option. If the transcript were in the comic template, such that it was comic image, title text, transcript, this would be a good option for screen readers, so that the explanation would be read after the transcript. I am quite in favor of this. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]]<span title="I'm an admin. I can help.">_a</span> ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 12:02, 14 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::I made a couple of halfhearted attempts at doing that box integration, but it's not as easy as copypasting it into the right place. Will get it done when I'm less busy. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|purple|David}}<font color=green size=3px>y</font></u><font color=indigo size=4px>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 13:29, 14 March 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Trivia section for the early comics? ==<br />
<br />
I noticed that the early xkcd comics that were [[:Category:Comics posted on livejournal|posted on livejournal]] sometimes have no real explanation (since there is really nothing much to explain), but feature a separate trivia section that mentions the original order, an alternative title text and/or a quote by Randall. Number [[7]] is a good example for it. I was wondering if it were not more practical to integrate the trivia section into the explanation text. Of course, it is strictly speaking not an explanation of the comic's ''contents'', but other explanations give meta information about the comic as well. As somebody in the section above has already mentioned: It is a thin line. I think, a separate trivia section only makes sense when there is 1) a full explanation of the comic that would otherwise be cluttered and 2) the trivia section contains technical meta information that does not add to the understanding of the comic (see [[1110]] for example). I think it more to the point to remove the trivia sections for the early comics altogether, but I thought I ask before anybody has to revert everything ;) -- [[User:LotharW|LotharW]] ([[User talk:LotharW|talk]]) 12:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
:That's still trivia that should probably stay in the trivia section, although the explanations for those comics do need work. Even if it's just to inform that reader that the earlier xkcd comics were more doodle-y than modern xkcd. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|#707|David}}<font color=#070 size=3>y</font></u><font color=#508 size=4>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 22:53, 18 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== To all Admins: IP User pages ==<br />
<br />
Since IP addresses are often dynamic the IP user pages should stay empty. If a user wants a user page he just can sign in here and there is no problem with links to former IP posts. Editing IP user pages produce just chaos.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 17:44, 19 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
:You're assuming that because some IP addresses are dynamic, we should bar IPs from creating userpages. For one, that's not true and [[User:50.151.2.168]] has been editing from the same address for a good half year. We cannot force IPs to do anything; see {{w|WP:HUMAN}}. IPs necessarily forfeit admin candidacy and the ability to edit semi-protected pages because of security concerns, but that's the extent of their restrictions on this wiki. {{w|User:76.117.247.55}} is a rather good example of an established IP with his own userpage on mainline Wikipedia. Also, {{w|WP:PAPER}} can likely be applied here; the disk space that a single redirect page takes up is insignificant, and mediawiki is designed to still perform well with many pages in it's database. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|#707|David}}<font color=#070 size=3>y</font></u><font color=#508 size=4>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 18:15, 19 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
::I did know you would do an answer like this. But I still fully disagree on this, an IP user is still dynamic and if those users don't like to sign in here they should not have user privileges.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 16:58, 20 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::The only answer I have to that is {{w|WP:HUMAN}}. Our IP users are just as valuable as our registered ones, and they are privy to all benefits that regular users receive except ones that could become problematic with shared IP addresses, like admin candidacy/privileges. That IP has edited from their address for longer than many registered users stay active. IPs are human too. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|#707|David}}<font color=#070 size=3>y</font></u><font color=#508 size=4>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 19:22, 20 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== "Its Cause Your Dumb" ==<br />
<br />
I'm interested in moving away from this tagline. Originally it made sense in our old blog logo in which it was Black Hat saying it, but now out of context it sounds way more condescending. I know people like it, but I don't think it is necessary to sit on the top of every page. --[[User:Jeff|<b><font color="orange">Jeff</font></b>]] ([[User talk:Jeff|talk]]) 16:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Adding the thumbnail of Black Hat back in would be trivial. We can either add it back in, or cut/change it entirely. I'm fine either way, though I did enjoy the old tagline. '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|#707|David}}<font color=#070 size=3>y</font></u><font color=#508 size=4>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 19:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
::''Explain xkcd: It's 'cause you're dumb.'' is still great. Black Hat is just telling the truth. But this and the "explainxkcd.com/X" should be moved to the bottom of the header.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 20:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC)</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=265:_Choices:_Part_2&diff=52329265: Choices: Part 22013-11-08T14:37:44Z<p>173.245.51.210: /* Explanation */ added a bit more details</p>
<hr />
<div>{{comic<br />
| number = 265<br />
| date = May 21, 2007<br />
| title = Choices: Part 2<br />
| image = choices_part_2.jpg<br />
| titletext = Maybe someday I'll get to write the Wikipedia article about this place! Wait, damn, original research.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Explanation==<br />
This is a little sidetrack from the "Choices" narrative. [[Cueball]] is studying {{w|special relativity}}. The {{w|speed of light}} in vacuum (299,792,458 m/s) is denoted ''c''. [[Megan]] and the spaceship are shown traveling at 0.2''c'' in opposite directions. This would mean (in Newtonian mechanics) 0.4''c'' relatively to them. But due to relativistic effects, their velocities do not simply add when the spaceship observes Megan, in reality both would measure only 0.385''c'' ( = (u + v)/(1 + uv/c<sup>2</sup>). ) from the other's point of view. Also, {{w|time dilation}} influences the way time is observed WRT the two frames of reference. Megan, however, has other concerns.<br />
<br />
In the title text Megan thinks about writing about this after-worldly place in Wikipedia, but then realizes that the content would be removed, due to the {{w|Wikipedia:No original research|Wikipedia policy on original research}}. Even though her claims would be true, she would need reliable written sources to support them.<br />
<br />
All parts of "[[:Category:Choices|Choices]]":<br />
*[[264: Choices: Part 1]]<br />
*[[265: Choices: Part 2]]<br />
*[[266: Choices: Part 3]]<br />
*[[267: Choices: Part 4]]<br />
*[[268: Choices: Part 5]]<br />
<br />
==Transcript==<br />
:[Cueball is doing some exercises in a book. The clock on the wall says 12:50.]<br />
:Chapter 15: Special Relativity<br />
:Problem 1:<br />
:Two spacecraft transmit messages to each other while passing at constant velocities of...<br />
:Cueball: ''sigh''<br />
<br />
:Meanwhile:<br />
:[Megan in a bubble and a spacecraft are moving towards each other. Each one has a velocity vector drawn before themselves, each showing a velocity of 0.2c.]<br />
<br />
:[They pass each other.]<br />
:Spacecraft: We observe your speed to be 38.5%c, and your time is passing at 92.3% the rate of ours. Does this mirror your observations?<br />
:Megan: Please help me. I think I'm lost.<br />
<br />
:[They continue with the same velocity vectors. Megan is looking back at the spacecraft.]<br />
<br />
{{comic discussion}}<br />
[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]<br />
[[Category:Comics featuring Megan]]<br />
[[Category:Comics with color]]<br />
[[Category:Choices]]<br />
[[Category:Physics]]<br />
[[Category:Wikipedia]]</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:1288:_Substitutions&diff=52322Talk:1288: Substitutions2013-11-08T14:03:38Z<p>173.245.51.210: </p>
<hr />
<div>We need a web plugin that does this automatically, stat! [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.216|141.101.99.216]] 11:36, 8 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Lol, I was just thinking the same thing! I was only meaning to post that in the discussion but saw that nobody had done the explanation yet. There goes a good chunk of my day :/ [[User:Zyxuvius|Zyxuvius]] ([[User talk:Zyxuvius|talk]]) 11:55, 8 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::: Came here just to say this. Please post links to the unofficial xkcd news substitution tool as soon as it becomes available :P -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.223|173.245.51.223]] 13:41, 8 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It already exists for Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/foxreplace/ This addon allows you to create substitution lists that will automatically be applied to web pages. -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.210|173.245.51.210]] 13:39, 8 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::: And here's an URL for the abovementioned FoxReplace addon. Just import it, and it will do the substitutions listed in this XKCD comic: https://www.dropbox.com/s/36eq2xgnmv8obpe/XKCD.json<br />
<br />
::I threw this together this morning for Chrome: https://github.com/ChrisMagellan/Make-News-Funny/ Note that you need to enable developer mode in your Extensions settings.</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:1288:_Substitutions&diff=52318Talk:1288: Substitutions2013-11-08T13:39:11Z<p>173.245.51.210: </p>
<hr />
<div>We need a web plugin that does this automatically, stat! [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.216|141.101.99.216]] 11:36, 8 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
Lol, I was just thinking the same thing! I was only meaning to post that in the discussion but saw that nobody had done the explanation yet. There goes a good chunk of my day :/ [[User:Zyxuvius|Zyxuvius]] ([[User talk:Zyxuvius|talk]]) 11:55, 8 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
It already exists for Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/foxreplace/ This addon allows you to create substitution lists that will automatically be applied to web pages.</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category_talk:Comics&diff=52287Category talk:Comics2013-11-08T08:55:31Z<p>173.245.51.210: /* Real-Life Effects */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>Should comic numbers still be padded out to 4 digits with zeroes now that a template is being used?<br />
:Could you point me to the template? --''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]]</sup> 17:11, 2 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Real-Life Effects ==<br />
<br />
I suggest there should be a category that groups together those posts that have had a lasting influence and/or following. Like, [[Chess Photo]] and [[Geohashing]]. I would've done this myself, but can't think of a good-enough name for such a category. -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.210|173.245.51.210]] 08:55, 8 November 2013 (UTC)</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:246:_Labyrinth_Puzzle&diff=52284Talk:246: Labyrinth Puzzle2013-11-08T08:20:42Z<p>173.245.51.210: but in the end... it doesn't really matter! ^^</p>
<hr />
<div>Just ask which color is the sky.. {{unsigned|175.110.37.200}}<br />
:Oh, although the strip doesn't explicitly say so; in those riddles you can normally only ask one question. --[[User:St.nerol|St.nerol]] ([[User talk:St.nerol|talk]]) 23:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)<br />
::There's another (more traditional) three-guard variation where one guard always tells the truth, one guard always tells a lie and the third alternates between pure truth and pure lie (and you don't know which flip they're currently flopped upon). But you ''still'' only get to ask one question of one guard. Have fun with that one. My personal solution certainly has a degree of convolution, but I've heard other workable answers. [[Special:Contributions/178.98.31.27|178.98.31.27]] 02:24, 21 June 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::@175.110.37.200, you would know which one lies but you would not know which door leads out. [[User:Tharkon|Tharkon]] ([[User talk:Tharkon|talk]]) 23:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Eh, well, even if you had a perfect question to ask in this case, a lot of good would that do you: it'd only reveal the truth behind the setup, that ''none'' of the doors lead out. :p -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.210|173.245.51.210]] 08:20, 8 November 2013 (UTC)</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:242:_The_Difference&diff=52283Talk:242: The Difference2013-11-08T07:59:47Z<p>173.245.51.210: done</p>
<hr />
<div>After reading this, I was just waiting for Hatguy to lure various animals over to the lever in order to test it without being harmed in the process... [[Special:Contributions/115.70.105.180|115.70.105.180]] 11:06, 2 July 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Causality? ==<br />
"Cueball pulls a lever. The lever causes a bolt of lightning to come down and strike him." I doubt that. "Cueball pulls a lever. A bolt of lightning comes down and strikes him." is correct. It may be coincidence, we cannot know that without testing. [[User:Undee|Undee]] ([[User talk:Undee|talk]]) 10:32, 18 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
: Agreed. And fixed. -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.210|173.245.51.210]] 07:59, 8 November 2013 (UTC)</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=242:_The_Difference&diff=52282242: The Difference2013-11-08T07:58:30Z<p>173.245.51.210: no causality has been proven here...</p>
<hr />
<div>{{comic<br />
| number = 242<br />
| date = March 30, 2007<br />
| title = The Difference<br />
| image = the_difference.png<br />
| titletext = How could you choose avoiding a little pain over understanding a magic lightning machine?<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Explanation==<br />
[[Cueball]] pulls a lever. A bolt of lightning comes down and strikes him.<br />
<br />
After being dazed for a moment, the comic then takes one of two routes; the first is that of a normal person and the second is that of a scientist.<br />
<br />
A normal person would decide not to pull the lever any more, because it seems to cause him to get struck by a bolt of lightning.<br />
<br />
But a scientist would pull the lever again to see if it was just a coincidence or if the lever actually caused the bolt of lightning. A scientist requires that results be repeatable before he accepts the results.<br />
<br />
The title text refers to the scientist's method of pulling the lever again and again, trying to understand how the machine works as opposed to the normal person, just avoiding pain.<br />
<br />
==Transcript==<br />
:[Cueball pulls a lever.]<br />
:''Pull''<br />
:[Lightning hits Cueball.]<br />
:''ZAP''<br />
:[Cueball still stands, obviously battered.]<br />
:[Arrow labeled "Normal Person".]<br />
:Thinks: I guess I shouldn't do that.<br />
:[Arrow labeled "Scientist".]<br />
:Thinks: I wonder if that happens every time.<br />
:[He reaches for the lever again.]<br />
<br />
{{comic discussion}}<br />
[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]</div>173.245.51.210https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:162:_Angular_Momentum&diff=51494Talk:162: Angular Momentum2013-10-30T22:46:43Z<p>173.245.51.210: added actual results</p>
<hr />
<div>The issue date is not given, as i don't have a clue about it. Could someone fix this? [[User:Rikthoff|Rikthoff]] ([[User talk:Rikthoff|talk]]) 19:30, 3 August 2012 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:When the page was updated to the new comic template by [[User:Bpothier]] he fixed the date. [[User:Lcarsos|lcarsos]] ([[User talk:Lcarsos|talk]]) 20:48, 28 August 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
That actually is a neat physics puzzle, which has probably (i.e. certainly) been addressed somewhere on the net. I may incorporate that some day. --[[User:Quicksilver|Quicksilver]] ([[User talk:Quicksilver|talk]]) 05:58, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I tried to calculate the change in Earth's period, assuming that she was standing in the north pole (latitude = 90º N), where her spinning would have more effect. I either did something wrong, or my TI-84 Plus is not capable of detecting the very small effect her spinning would have on the Earth's rotation. I assumed the Earth had a period of exactly 24 hours, and got the same value to the second, even if she was spinning at 1000 turns per second, which seems like a lot.<br />
<br />
Here's the formula:<br />
<br />
L_Earth_i = L_Earth_f + L_spinner <=><br />
<br />
I_Earth * (2*PI)/T_Earth_i = I_Earth * (2*PI)/T_Earth_f + I_spinner* (2*PI) * f_spinner <=><br />
<br />
(1/T_Earth_f) = (1/T_Earth_i) - (I_spinner/I_Earth)*f_spinner <=><br />
<br />
T_Earth_f = 1/((1/T_Earth_i) - (I_spinner/I_Earth)*f_spinner)<br />
<br />
<br />
Where the variables have names in the format:<br />
<br />
[variable name]_[object it refers to]_[situation (i or f stand for initial and final)]<br />
<br />
<br />
L = Angular Moment<br />
<br />
I = Moment of Inertia<br />
<br />
T = Period of rotation about one's axis<br />
<br />
f = frequency<br />
<br />
<br />
I used as values:<br />
<br />
T_Earth_i = 86400 seconds (24 hours exactly)<br />
<br />
I_spinner = 62,04 Kg.m^2 (Found on Wolfram|Alpha, for a 62Kg adult human being)<br />
<br />
I_Earth = 8,03e+37 Kg.m^2 (http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/MomentofInertiaEarth.html)<br />
<br />
f_spinner = the frequency of the woman's spinning in complete turns per second. {{unsigned ip|2.82.142.28}}<br />
<br />
:Taking that a bit further, the relative decrease is:<br />
<br />
(T_Earth_f - T_Earth_i)/T_Earth_i = 1 / (I_Earth/(I_spinner*T_Earth_i*f_spinner) - 1)<br />
= 1 / ( 1.5 e+28 - 1) ~= 67 e-30<br />
<br />
:Fwiw, the absolute value is 5.767 yocto-seconds. If the ''entire'' world population would spin at that 1000 turns per second (and at favourable locations as in your assumptions), the effect will still be a measly 0.041 pico-seconds. So T_Earth_f = 86 399.999 999 999 999 958 ... But the TI-84 only has about 14 digits precision, i believe, so even that won't show up. -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.210|173.245.51.210]] 22:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC)</div>173.245.51.210