Editing Talk:2007: Brookhaven RHIC

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I think the correct explanation has to do with relativistic mass. Accelerated gold ions will have an increased (relativistic) mass. Therefore, the gold coming out of the accelerator will have a higher value than the input. You just have to sell by mass. --[[Special:Contributions/172.68.78.22|172.68.78.22]] 16:14, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
:Yeah, we need to calculate the increase of mass at 99.99, 99,999, 99,9999 percent of the speed of light. I didn't check but I'm curious how many 9s we need to reach the mass of the Earth for a single gold nuclei. Nevertheless the speed is zero again when you collect them, or you have to move at the same speed, but than you can't measure that increase because you're in the same reference -- and back on Earth your own mass would have grown out far beyond the mass of our Milky Way. --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 18:11, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
::Mass is an invariant quantity. What is increased is the total energy, E=sqrt(p^2+m^2). As previously mentioned, when they are delivered they would have to be measured in a comoving frame in which case no increase in "mass"  would be noticed.-- [[Special:Contributions/162.158.146.70|162.158.146.70]] 20:46, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
:::Sorry, you know what ''invariant'' means in physics? And you can't sum p and m (simply squared both) by using the Einstein conventions c=1, it's in fact E<sup>2</sup>=m<sup>4</sup>+p<sup>2</sup> -- I fear most people still don't understand. --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 22:02, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
::::Comes across a bit condescending considering m^2c^4=(mc^2)^2, not (mc)^4. The mass is the rest mass, which is always the same, considering it is measured at rest. It is a misnomer to call the total energy the mass. The physics you're describing is correct, I just take issue with the wording. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough. --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.146.70|162.158.146.70]] 22:29, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Isn't a typical cash-for-gold store where you would take your gold and walk out with cash for your gold? It sounds like Randall's proposal is gold-for-cash stores instead. [[User:Ianrbibtitlht|Ianrbibtitlht]] ([[User talk:Ianrbibtitlht|talk]]) 19:03, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
: It makes sense if his proposal is to sell the gold to the stores, where he would just need the stores to agree to buy the high speed particles. I thought he was suggesting consumers would buy the excess gold particles in the stores, but that's probably not what he meant. [[User:Ianrbibtitlht|Ianrbibtitlht]] ([[User talk:Ianrbibtitlht|talk]]) 19:14, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

My first thought here was that he was proposing a gold-ion particle beam weapon. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.106.240|162.158.106.240]] 20:10, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

The destination in the middle appears to be the actual location of a cash for gold shop [https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cash+for+Gold/@40.8009993,-72.8694024,13z/data=!4m8!1m2!2m1!1scash+for+gold!3m4!1s0x0:0xd50dc29c3fa0b22f!8m2!3d40.8023428!4d-72.8620523?hl=en according to google maps].  The other ones don't seem to exist though.
[[Special:Contributions/162.158.88.176|162.158.88.176]] 01:43, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
: Actually all three locations exists in real life. From left to right (north to south): New York Gold Center, Cash for Gold, and Gold Traders Inc. --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.134.142|162.158.134.142]] 07:03, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

If anyone wants to calculate the revenue of the project: particles move at 0.99995c and according to one source they use less than 1/1000000 Gramm of gold in 20years(idk they could probably use more if they wanted). Current gold price is about 1280€ per kg
19:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)some dude that forgot highschool physics19:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)~21.10:16 June 2018 (UTC)

I suppose that RHIC will generate gold nuclei only, not providing electrons to build-up complete atoms. Thus the objection is "I won't buy gold without electrons, because I will find highly positive electric charges from protons-only projectiles".

My thouhtt was, that Randall proposes to use existing gold particles in shops for the collision, instead of using gold provided by the research program. Thus potentially saving miniscule amounts of gold. - MN (anonymous)

The comic proper was pushing the envelope of weirdness, but the pun in the title text is golden. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.246.158|172.68.246.158]] 12:29, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
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 <!--Please sign your posts with ~~~~ and don't delete this text. New comments should be added at the bottom.-->
 I think the correct explanation has to do with relativistic mass. Accelerated gold ions will have an increased (relativistic) mass. Therefore, the gold coming out of the accelerator will have a higher value than the input. You just have to sell by mass. --[[Special:Contributions/172.68.78.22|172.68.78.22]] 16:14, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
-:The relativistic mass angle and calculation is interesting and amusing, but my impression of the intention is simply that--from a certain point of view--the entire accelerator is nothing but an extremely expensive and convoluted way to transport gold from Point A to Point B.  An extremely small quantity of gold, yes--but that is part of the point.
-:By adding the gold shop into the loop, he is simply pointing up the "gold delivery" aspect of the accelerator.  Again, this isn't a really efficient gold delivery scheme but the very ridiculousness of it is the point. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.150.52|172.68.150.52]] 01:37, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
 :Yeah, we need to calculate the increase of mass at 99.99, 99,999, 99,9999 percent of the speed of light. I didn't check but I'm curious how many 9s we need to reach the mass of the Earth for a single gold nuclei. Nevertheless the speed is zero again when you collect them, or you have to move at the same speed, but than you can't measure that increase because you're in the same reference -- and back on Earth your own mass would have grown out far beyond the mass of our Milky Way. --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 18:11, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 ::Mass is an invariant quantity. What is increased is the total energy, E=sqrt(p^2+m^2). As previously mentioned, when they are delivered they would have to be measured in a comoving frame in which case no increase in "mass"  would be noticed.-- [[Special:Contributions/162.158.146.70|162.158.146.70]] 20:46, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 :::Sorry, you know what ''invariant'' means in physics? And you can't sum p and m (simply squared both) by using the Einstein conventions c=1, it's in fact E<sup>2</sup>=m<sup>4</sup>+p<sup>2</sup> -- I fear most people still don't understand. --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 22:02, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 ::::Comes across a bit condescending considering m^2c^4=(mc^2)^2, not (mc)^4. The mass is the rest mass, which is always the same, considering it is measured at rest. It is a misnomer to call the total energy the mass. The physics you're describing is correct, I just take issue with the wording. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough. --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.146.70|162.158.146.70]] 22:29, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
-: I don't think the relativistic mass is at all relevant. Presumably the gold would have to be brought to rest to be sold anyway, and I see nothing in the comic indicating that the gold would be sold based on this higher mass value. Also, these days physicists typically use "mass" to refer to what has historically been referred to as "rest mass", and have largely abandoned the idea that the mass of a particle increases with speed. [[User:Redbelly98|Redbelly98]] ([[User talk:Redbelly98|talk]]) 02:02, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 Isn't a typical cash-for-gold store where you would take your gold and walk out with cash for your gold? It sounds like Randall's proposal is gold-for-cash stores instead. [[User:Ianrbibtitlht|Ianrbibtitlht]] ([[User talk:Ianrbibtitlht|talk]]) 19:03, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 : It makes sense if his proposal is to sell the gold to the stores, where he would just need the stores to agree to buy the high speed particles. I thought he was suggesting consumers would buy the excess gold particles in the stores, but that's probably not what he meant. [[User:Ianrbibtitlht|Ianrbibtitlht]] ([[User talk:Ianrbibtitlht|talk]]) 19:14, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
@@ Line 22: / Line 15: @@
 If anyone wants to calculate the revenue of the project: particles move at 0.99995c and according to one source they use less than 1/1000000 Gramm of gold in 20years(idk they could probably use more if they wanted). Current gold price is about 1280€ per kg
-:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)some dude that forgot highschool physics19:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)~21.10:16 June 2018 (UTC) {{unsigned ip|172.68.51.202}}
+:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)some dude that forgot highschool physics19:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)~21.10:16 June 2018 (UTC)
-I suppose that RHIC will generate gold nuclei only, not providing electrons to build-up complete atoms. Thus the objection is "I won't buy gold without electrons, because I will find highly positive electric charges from protons-only projectiles". {{unsigned ip|172.68.10.184}}
+I suppose that RHIC will generate gold nuclei only, not providing electrons to build-up complete atoms. Thus the objection is "I won't buy gold without electrons, because I will find highly positive electric charges from protons-only projectiles".
-My thought was, that Randall proposes to use existing gold particles in shops for the collision, instead of using gold provided by the research program. Thus potentially saving miniscule amounts of gold. - MN (anonymous) {{unsigned ip|141.101.76.82}}
+My thouhtt was, that Randall proposes to use existing gold particles in shops for the collision, instead of using gold provided by the research program. Thus potentially saving miniscule amounts of gold. - MN (anonymous)
-:When I read this, it felt possible to me, but then I realized: calling that spot "Diverter" indicates the flow is the other way. Then I noticed the grey arrows ALSO indicating the flow is the other way. [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 04:16, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 The comic proper was pushing the envelope of weirdness, but the pun in the title text is golden. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.246.158|172.68.246.158]] 12:29, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
-Ok im gonna atempt to calculate the revenue. At the start of the RHIC is EBIS Electron Beem Ion Scource. Acourding to to (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_Beam_Ion_Trap) it can contain anything from a few thousands to many millions of Particles. Im goingt to assume 1 Million particles at the time for gold. The paricles in Ebis are charged for 30 milliseconds (https://www.bnl.gov/rhic/video.php?v=156).Im therefore going to assume a possible firerate of 50 milliseconds = 0,05s. This amounts to 630720000 poosible fireings per year. and therfore roughtly 630720000*10^6=63072*10^10 paricles per year. This is around 1.05*10^(-9)Mol. Sice one Mol of gold is 197 gramm this is about 2*10^(-7)gramm= 20 mikrogramms. The paricles travel at 0.99995c. I'm affaid of the last step of the calc so im gonna let someone else do it.  The Current gold price is  at 36493€ per Kg (Source Google).13:24, 18 June 2018 (UTC)me mathstudent13:24, 18 June 2018 (UTC) {{unsigned ip|172.68.51.166}}
-:Ok I overcame my fear asked Wolfram alpha and it said that at 0.99995c 20 mikorgramm equal around 600kg,ok 600*36493=21835800€13:50, 18 June 2018 (UTC)~me a mathsstudent13:50, 18 June 2018 (UTC)~ {{unsigned ip|172.68.51.64}}
-All of this is just fine - so long as the gold stores don't stop the gold moving in order to weigh it.  Honestly, I think he'd be better off using Heisenburg's uncertainty principle - if they try to weigh the gold very accurately, then because they won't be able to determine its precise position, he can sell it to all three stores at once. {{unsigned ip|172.69.69.34}}
-Somehow, coming here and finding out this is a real map, and those are real stores, makes this like 1,000 times funnier to me, LOL! Maybe Randall noticed the alignment, how these three stores are roughly in a line, and he got inspired. [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 04:16, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
-I'm removing the incomplete tag because I don't think it's necessary to calculate the revenue from the project and put the results in the explanation. If anyone wants to, they can add it in an additional trivia section. [[User:Herobrine|Herobrine]] ([[User talk:Herobrine|talk]]) 10:53, 20 August 2018 (UTC)