explain xkcd - User contributions [en]

Talk:572: Together

2024-09-15T16:43:45Z

108.162.245.26:

Definitely one of the sweetest xkcd strips ever. [[User:Alpha|Alpha]] ([[User talk:Alpha|talk]]) 07:30, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
:Or one of the most sad - as he just maried for a game and left when he was finished with his project... [[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 00:41, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
::I always thought it was a metaphor for death instead of him actually literally leaving, especially because the way it ended. "What next?" just seems like an optimistic way to view the end. [[User:Sonicstormwind|Sonicstormwind]] ([[User talk:Sonicstormwind|talk]]) 23:03, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
U
Could "building a treehouse" refer to an adult activity that is frequently postponed and possibly never finished, like items in a to do list? [[Special:Contributions/108.162.212.196|108.162.212.196]] 17:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
:No, those are shark teeth. [[User:Weatherlawyer| I used Google News BEFORE it was clickbait]] ([[User talk:Weatherlawyer|talk]]) 04:04, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I feel maybe the wife was concerned that he was wandering off, and wants him to come back. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.241.166|108.162.241.166]] 19:17, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

I think the entire [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=572:_Together&oldid=181042#Speculation speculation section] was way off as it assumes Megan was in on the game, which there is no indication of (actually negative since she is not going back with him). I have added this point to the main explanation and removed that section completely. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 08:51, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

I completely agree that Megan wasn't in the on the game, but i wonder if you've over - corrected here. Marriage is something many people do when looking for happiness and folks generally don't describe that as exploitative. And arguably he happiness wouldn't be authentic if he told Megan his search for happiness was part of real scavenger hunt with people to verify your achievements (one could argue that living a somewhat traditional life is akin to a scavenger hunt: complete schooling, get a career, get married, own property, have kids, etc.)

The item behind the speech bubble starts with an "H" [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.26|108.162.245.26]] 16:43, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

And it's not at all clear that he doesn't come back ever. Just that he leaves for a moment without telling her why. After you find an arrowhead penny, you keep the penny.

Your interpretation is possible, but it's one of many possible interpretations[[Special:Contributions/108.162.242.20|108.162.242.20]] 09:30, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

I think this is the only strip (to my knowledge) which uses crinkly, crumbly line drawing to (presumably) indicate old age, despite the fact that there are surely other old people in other strips. I think maybe the explanation should say something about that? [[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.43|162.158.159.43]] 11:43, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Page got hijacked, can someone revert the image?

2659: Unreliable Connection

2023-02-01T22:37:01Z

108.162.245.26: Replaced content with "Hi, I am getting in touch with creative profiles in Marketing Agencies to see if you would be interested in our tool: https://www.aismartad.com/, it's like Canva but our..."

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2348: Boat Puzzle

2020-09-04T14:15:47Z

108.162.245.26: /* Explanation */

{{comic
| number = 2348
| date = August 19, 2020
| title = Boat Puzzle
| image = boat_puzzle.png
| titletext = 'No, my cabbage moths have already started laying eggs in them! Send the trolley into the river!' 'No, the sailing wolf will steal the boat to rescue them!'
}}

==Explanation==
This comic is a twist on {{w|Wolf, goat and cabbage problem|an old riddle}}. In the original riddle, a person has to cross a river in a boat that can only hold them and one other object. They have a wolf, a goat, and a cabbage that they need to bring across with them, similar to the first panel. If the wolf is left alone with the goat, however, the wolf will eat the goat; and if the goat and cabbage are alone, the goat will eat the cabbage. (The problem can be solved in seven trips.)

However, the comic quickly devolves into surrealism in the later panels as new characters show up, bringing deviations of the original "cabbage", "goat", and "wolf" that add extra layers of complexity to the riddle. White Hat brings extra wolves and cabbages. Black Hat, in his traditional classhole style, brings {{w|cabbage moth}}s which will infest unsupervised cabbages with destructive larvae, and boat-destroying {{w|termite}}s. How he intends to bring them across the river (or even if he wants to) is unknown, but it brings to mind the parable of ''{{w|The Scorpion and the Frog}}''. Beret Guy arrives with a wolf who can operate a boat, who could perhaps serve as a second pilot to expedite the crossing, so long as he is not asked to ferry a goat, and also a goat who eats wolves (which does not alter the problem constraints but is unusual, as one would expect from Beret Guy's associate).

The last panel is a reference to the {{w|Trolley problem}}, a moral test that asks the participant whether they would passively let people in the way of an uncontrollable trolley die or actively divert the trolley to kill a single person standing on a branch of the tracks. The comic gives a twist here too: according to the title text, the characters must choose between stopping the trolley full of wolves with a cushion of cabbages (in which Black Hat's cabbage moths have laid eggs, which he implicitly argues are morally equivalent to "innocent children") or letting it crash into the river (at which point the wolf who can operate a boat will steal the boat to rescue the wolves from the trolley, which will delay the other characters from crossing the river).

The River Crossing puzzle was also mentioned in [[1134: Logic Boat]] and referenced in [[589: Designated Drivers]].

The Trolley Problem was also mentioned in [[1455: Trolley Problem]] and referenced in [[1938: Meltdown and Spectre]].

==Solving The Problem==

Unlike typical Logic Boat problems the presence of multiple humans makes finding a solution almost trivial, however trying to determine the solution with the least number of trips could still make the somewhat challenging. Because the set of constraints are both ambiguous and incomplete, it requires the reader to make assumptions that, in turn, will lead to different solutions.

===Reasonable Assumptions===

The following assumptions can be made based on the setup of the problem or are necessary to avoid an unsolvable puzzle.

* '''Cueball is an observer.''' He is set up as an observer there to solve the problem, not pilot the boat or "watch" the cargo.
* '''The boat can only hold two items.''' This is standard in logic boat problems. Groups of insects count as one item.
* '''Black Hat and Beret Guy both want to cross the river with their cargo'''. Neither states that they wish to cross the river like Ponytail and White Hat, but it can be inferred from the setup of the scenario.
* '''The termites will destroy the boat ''after'' crossing.''' Otherwise the problem is unsolvable. This is similar to the {{w|Poncelet–Steiner theorem}}, which shows that any compass-and-straightedge construction can be completed with a "rusty compass", so long as the compass works at least once.
* '''The wolf-eating goat also eats cabbage.''' The wolf-eating constraint adds to the goat's existing constraints.
* '''The sailing wolf follows the command of an adjacent human.''' The alternatives require more assumptions for a solvable puzzle.
* '''The sailing wolf returns the trolley wolves to the near shore.''' The trolley wolves show no indication of wanting to cross the river.
* '''Stopping the trolley destroys all the cabbages.''' Otherwise the event does not affect the logic puzzle.
* '''The pack of wolves from the trolley will eat a human or wolf-eating goat left by themselves.''' Aligns with the spirit of the constraints.
** '''A wolf can protect a human from a pack of wolves'''. A human who is accompanied by one of the wolves who want to cross the river should not count as being "alone" for the purpose of getting eaten by the wolves from the trolley; otherwise, there is no way to get everyone across.

===The Trolley===

The trolley problem creates two versions of the puzzle, one where the cabbages are destroyed, the other where they are not and a wolf rescue takes place. The ethical issues associated with the trolley problem are independent from the logic of how to cross the river.

===Solutions===

* General

With four humans involved, the first trip across can bring an extra human who then can guard the cargo as it is brought across in arbitrary order with care being taken not to have predator and prey along together at the end. The termites must be last cargo ferried across as they will destroy the boat.

* The Trolley is Stopped

The cabbages are destroyed. The second to last trip brings across the last human and the last trip brings across the termites.

* The Trolley is not Stopped

A pack of wolves is now on the near bank. The last human is brought across in the third to last trip, followed by the last wolf and lastly the termites.

===Missing Information===

No information is provided about whether or not the humans all get along with each other and this is left as a possible exercise for the reader given all of the characters' varying personality traits. However the sailing wolf would likely come in handy if certain humans (ex Black Hat, Beret Guy) cannot be left alone. It is also probable that certain characters might not serve in the capacity as a cargo guard.

It is also unclear if humans can leave with their cargo once all the cargo has been brought across. This could complicate matters if a far side "guard" leaves early.

==Transcript==
:[Cueball and Ponytail are standing on the bank of a river. There is a boat in the river. A goat and wolf are also on the riverbank, and Ponytail is holding a cabbage.]
:Ponytail: I need to cross the river. I have a wolf, a goat, and a cabbage.
:Cueball: Hmm.

:[White Hat appears, accompanied by two wolves and pulling a wagon full of cabbages.]
:Cueball: OK, here's what-
:White Hat: Hi, I also need to cross. I have two wolves and 100 cabbages.

:[Black Hat arrives, surrounded by a cloud of flying creatures and carrying a jar of bugs under his arm. Beret Guy follows with another wolf and goat on leashes.]
:Black Hat: I have 50 cabbage moths and 2,000 boat-destroying termites.
:Beret Guy: I have a wolf that can operate a boat, and a goat that eats wolves.

:[The fourth panel is a zoomed-out shot, where everything but the sky appears black.]

:[A trolley speeds in, leaving a trail of dust in its wake. A person is standing on the front, and many ears are barely visible above the seats.]

:Cueball: Hang on, I need to make a spreadsheet.
:Trolley operator: Look out!
:Trolley operator: My wolf-filled trolley is out of control and can only be stopped by a cushion of cabbages!

{{comic discussion}}
[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Ponytail]]
[[Category:Comics featuring White Hat]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Black Hat]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Beret Guy]]
[[Category:Logic]]
[[Category:Animals]]
[[Category:Food]]

2343: Mathematical Symbol Fight

2020-08-09T15:18:30Z

108.162.245.26: /* Explanation */

{{comic
| number = 2343
| date = August 7, 2020
| title = Mathematical Symbol Fight
| image = mathematical_symbol_fight.png
| titletext = Oh no, a musician just burst in through the door confidently twirling a treble clef.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by a SQUARE ROOT SCYTHE. Please mention here why this explanation isn't complete. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

This panel imagines which {{w|List of mathematical symbols|mathematical symbols}} would be good in a fight if they were made corporeal in two (or three) dimensions. Generally, objects with longer reach and pointier ends wind up on the right ("more useful") side of the scale, and symbols with less reach and more curves tend towards the left ("less useful") side.

The comic invokes [[wikipedia:surreal humour|surreal humour]] by suggesting that mathematical symbols could be handled as physical objects in the real world. Another component of the humor is the implication that it is useful to prepare to use mathematical symbols in a fight, even though mathematicians, who use mathematical symbols, usually do not conduct their debates violently {{Citation needed}} (though some stories suggest that {{w|Hippasus}} was killed by his fellow Pythagoreans for his proof that irrational numbers exist), and even if they did, they wouldn't use large reproductions of their symbols as weapons.

{| class="wikitable"
! Symbol
! Meaning
! Notes on using in a fight
|-
|ℝ
|The set of [[wikipedia:real number|real number]]s
|Megan seems to be struggling with a giant version of this symbol.
|-
|θ
|[[wikipedia:Theta#Mathematics_and_science|Theta]]
|This symbol is not very sharp, and [[White Hat]] is unable to use it in combat. It would not work as a good shield due to the hole in the symbol, but it possibly could be thrown. (The later version of Xena's chakram had a bar in the middle.)
|-
|∅
|[[wikipedia:Empty set|Empty set]]
|Similarly shaped to theta, but identified as being slightly more useful, presumably because the parts of the bar that extend beyond the circle can be used as thrusting weapons.
|-
|∞
|infinity
|Could be gripped between the rings and used as a blunt instrument.
|-
|>
|Greater than
|Could be used to thrust with the point, but lacks a grip by which to do so.
|-
|∝
|[[wikipedia:Proportionality_(mathematics)#Direct_proportionality|Direct Proportionality]]
|Could be brandished by the ring and used to thrust with the prongs, but the two prongs extending at 90-degree angles make thrusting motions awkard.
|-
|∪
|{{w|union (set theory)}}
|Could be used as a boomerang, which is {{tvtropes|PrecisionGuidedBoomerang|notoriously less practical in real life than in fiction}}
|-
|∈/ϵ
|{{w|Element (mathematics)|member of}} (set theory) or the "lunate" lowercase {{w|Epsilon#Symbol|epsilon}}
|Cueball is holding this in the manner of a Klingon "{{w|Bat'leth}}" from the ''Star Trek'' franchise. The Bat'leth is [https://youtu.be/VsElSDXPgSA infamous] among swordfighters for being rather impractical, and that the Klingon warrior race would have been better suited using swords like humans. It seems Randall agrees, as the ∈ is quite far on the left of the chart.
|-
|π
|[[wikipedia:Pi|pi]]
|Could be used as a hammer, but the two handles (or a single board-like grip) would make doing so impractical.
|-
|∀
|"{{w|Universal quantification|for all}}"
|Could be held by the crossbar clenched in a fist, and then used as a {{w|push dagger}}, with the legs acting as a guard. Or could be held by the legs.
Compared to the similar Δ (delta) the point is sharper, the grip is closer to the point so it would be easier control (keep the weapon from twisting). Unclear why it is listed as much less effective than the delta. Perhaps the guard legs are too long?
|-
|∂
|{{w|∂}} ([[wikipedia:Partial derivative|partial derivative]] or [[wikipedia:Boundary_(topology)|boundary operator]])
|It's not clear why Randall ranks this symbol as so much less effective than the similarly-shaped 𝜌, but the curl in the "tail" of the ∂ would give it a shorter lever arm when swung and would disrupt the balance.
|-
| +
|[[wikipedia:Plus_and_minus_signs#Plus_sign|Plus]]
|Maybe thrown like a {{w|shuriken}}?
|-
|Ψ
|[[wikipedia:Psi#Mathematics|Psi]]
|It could be used as a slightly-less-functional trident or pitchfork, with a shorter handle. More particularly, it resembles a {{w|Sai (weapon)|sai}} (which, funnily enough, is how "Psi" is pronounced).
|-
|≠
|not equal sign
|Could be gripped by the crossbar, using the lengths to puncture. Notably, the equal sign (=) is absent from the chart, likely because the lengths are separate and would not be used as a single entity.
|-
|~
|[[wikipedia:Tilde#Mathematics|tilde]], meaning "approximately", equivalent, or several transforms of a function
|A potentially dangerous throwing weapon. Could also be similar to a wavy bladed dagger ({{w|Kris}}) or a sword ({{w|Flame-bladed sword}}).
|-
|#
|[[wikipedia:Cardinality|Cardinality]], [[wikipedia:Connected_sum|connected sum]] (knot theory), or [[wikipedia:Primorial|primorial]].
|Blondie uses this symbol.
|-
|Δ
|[[wikipedia:Delta_(letter)|Delta]]
|Could be held with one bar clenched in a fist, and then used as a {{w|push dagger}}. Unclear why listed as much more effective than ∀. Also, delta could be thrown like a star.
|-
|⇒
|[[wikipedia:Material_conditional|Material consequence]] or [[wikipedia:Logical_consequence|Logical consequence]], meaning "implies"
|The point is nice, but having two poles (or one board-like thick handle) would be difficult to wield. A collection of them might make a nice defensive pike line.
|-
|⋅
|multiplication sign
|If thrown, this could be a dangerous projectile weapon, or it could be scattered on the ground as a trip hazard. Three of them stacked together would make a "{{w|therefore sign}}", which might at least conclude the ''mathematical'' portion of the fight in the user's favor.
|-
|ζ
|{{w|Zeta#Mathematics_and_science|Zeta}}
|Could be sharpened into a scythe or curved saber, depending on the curvature and length of the 'tail' at the bottom.
|-
|ℵ
|[[wikipedia:Aleph_number|Aleph number]]
|Could be brandished or thrown in the manner of a shuriken.
|-
|Γ
|uppercase Greek letter {{w|Gamma#Uppercase|Gamma}}
|If this letter is formed with {{w|serif}}s, it could be used as an axe or hook, and if it is made {{w|sans-serif}}, it would make a powerful pick or war hammer.
|-
|√
|{{w|square root}} sign
|Randall has drawn this sign with a long overbar, which makes it useful like a {{w|Pole weapon|pole arm}}. Black Hat has chosen this symbol.
|-
|''ρ''
|{{w|Prime_constant|italic rho}}
|Ponytail is brandishing this symbol against Danish, apparently using it like a club or hammer and striking with the curve.
|-
|∮
|{{w|contour integral}}
|This symbol is drawn with a very tight center, giving it an almost identical figure to the regular integral symbol. Presumably, the added bulk for marginal additional use earns it a rating of 'less effective'.
|-
|∫
|{{w|integral}}
|Could be used in the manner of a shepherd's crook, or as a {{w|Bill (weapon)|billhook}}. Could be used as a {{w|spear thrower}}, combined with ⋅ or ⇀.
|-
|→
|Implies; X→Y means that if X is true, then Y is also true
|Danish is brandishing this symbol against Ponytail, apparently using it like a spear or other polearm.
|-
|⊥
|{{w|up tack}} or falsum, indicating a false proposition in logic or the bottom element in a partial order
|Used as a {{w|war hammer}} (held by the long stem), the opponent would be struck with either leg of the top of the T. Held by the short legs (like a wishbone), could be used as a two handed sword.
(If tipped with a knapped stone head, it could become a {{w|Folsom point|falsum point}}.)
|-
|⇀
|{{w|Vector notation}}
|A single-barbed spear.
|-
|⎯⎯
|{{w|Fraction#Vocabulary|Fraction bar}} (division) or {{w|Overline#Math_and_science|overline}} (complex conjugate or mean).
|Hairy is brandishing this symbol against Black Hat. The single shaft would allow it to be used in the manner of a {{w|quarterstaff}}, {{w|bō}}, or other {{w|stick-fighting}} weapon. Of the symbols shown in the comic, Randall considers this one the most useful in a fight, presumably because of its greater reach than the vector arrow and its simplicity compared to the square root symbol.
|-
|𝄞
|{{w|Treble clef}}
|Mentioned in the title text; this is not a mathematical symbol, but a musical symbol. The treble clef is a much more complicated symbol than those used in mathematics, hence the musician's "confidence" in his weapon. The curve at the bottom could be used as a hook, the upper curl could be used as a blunt weapon, and the tight curl of the center would serve as a better defensive shield than theta.
|}

A straight line is farthest to the "more dangerous" side, which could possibly be a reference to the dangers posed by lines in "Flatland", because their infinitely-sharp endpoints could be difficult to see (particularly their rear end, which does not contain a gleaming eye as their front end does) and would fatally pierce whoever they chose to stab. However, taking a more literal view of the drawings, the straight line does not appear to be any thicker or thinner, or pointier, than any of the other lines.

The title text refers to a {{w|Treble clef}}, which is not a mathematical symbol but rather a {{w|List of musical symbols|musical symbol}}. The note of concern in the text suggests musical symbols may be viewed in such fights as exotic or especially dangerous.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}
[Heading]

Mathematical Symbols

[Subheading]

by how useful they would be in a fight

more useful

⟶

ℝ ∅ > ∝ π + Ψ ~ ⇒ ⋅ Γ √ ∮ ∫ ⇀
θ ∞ ∪ ∈ ∀ ∂ ≠ # Δ ζ ℵ ''ρ'' → ⊥ ⎯

[Below the (number?) line, eight characters fight each other, using some of the symbols mentioned above as weapons.]

[The characters hold more "useful" weapons from left to right, correlating with the chart.]

[Megan is awkwardly handling a giant "ℝ".]

[White Hat is holding a "θ" with both hands, as a shield.]

[Cueball is holding an "∈" in both hands, with its "tines" pointed towards Blondie, who is swatting at him with a "#".]

[Ponytail is leaping at Danish, swinging a "''ρ''" like an axe, while Danish is leaning back and thrusting a "→" back at her.]

[Black Hat is swinging a long "√" like a polearm at Hairy, who is holding a long "⎯" defensively.]

-
List of symbols from left to right (by rightmost edge):

ℝ θ ∅ ∞ > ∪ ∝ ∈ ∀ π ∂ + ≠ Ψ # ~ △ ζ ⇒ ⋅ ℵ Γ ''ρ'' √ → ∮ ∫ ⊥ ⇀ ⎯

Note: Where two symbols had similar right-most edges, the overlay grid on an ASUS pro-art display was used to decide which one went further right.

{{comic discussion}}
[[Category:Math]]
[[Category:Music]]
[[Category:Charts]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Megan]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Danish]]
[[Category:Comics featuring White Hat]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Blondie]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Ponytail]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Black Hat]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Hairy]]

Talk:2295: Garbage Math

2020-04-19T22:13:33Z

108.162.245.26:

== Inclusion in Series ==
This is not a Covid19 comic. One could think that this is a comment on the difficulties of modeling the corona virus outbreak, but since discussions of exponential functions are only a small part in the comic I believe it is just a general comment on floating point arithmetic mixed in with statistical considerations. --[[Special:Contributions/108.162.229.242|108.162.229.242]] 17:28, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
:I disagree that this is not a COVID-19 comic. I also believe the one about visualizing large numbers was COVID-19 related. On the other hand, I like the idea that Randall might produce exactly 19 comics related to SARS CoViD 2019, so I'm prepared to concede the point for the sake of arbitrary numerological appeal.
:[[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 18:42, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
::I think Exa-Exabyte was a real stretch (the virus doesn't even have DNA), but there is a tenuous link so whatever. The idea that ''this'' comic is related, on the other hand, stretches past the breaking point. There's hardly anything that can't be linked to global events if we try hard enough, but that doesn't mean there's an actual link. Sometimes a comic about garbage math is just a comic about garbage math. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.71.58|172.69.71.58]] 19:33, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
:::I think this one's much more likely to be a coronavirus comic than Exa-Exabyte was. There's an awful lot of COVID data, much of it either very imprecise or outright garbage; and the comic directly before this one ([[2294]]) involved bad modeling of said COVID data, so clearly COVID data (and its limitations) is something Randall's currently thinking of and drawing comics about. [[User:Pelosujamo|Pelosujamo]] ([[User talk:Pelosujamo|talk]]) 20:25, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
::::Exa-Exabyte was centered around biology, which gives reason to believe it was covid19 related. This one seems much more uncertain. Any conclusion that it is related is based on garbage. Jokes aside, It seems like much more of a stretch to me. Randall thinking in those terms is a reasonable argument, but personally I am going to assume this is the chain breaker unless a direct reference is made in the next couple comics since ending at 19 is would be appropriate. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.70.209|172.69.70.209]]
:: While this comic has no ''direct'' reference to Covid-19 it does appear that the math might be related. At this point we can't know if the series has ended. As such I've edited the paragraph in the explanation to identify the known ambiguities. And now I realize I've made an explanatory paragraph about "knowledge error bars" in the explanation of a comic about numerical error bars.[[User:Iggynelix|Iggynelix]] ([[User talk:Iggynelix|talk]]) 14:42, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
:::No. The reason it appears the math might be related is ''because the math relates to everything, everywhere''. That's not enough of a connection. During this pandemic, there will be a lot of comics related to the coronavirus, many of them in a row, but that doesn't mean that every comic that could be tangentially related if you squint just right should qualify as a COVID-19 comic (I ''still'' think Exa-Exabyte doesn't). There needs to be a real link, because just about ''anything'' could be twisted into a relation if you try hard enough. As a test, I hit [[Special:Random]] and got [[346: Diet Coke+Mentos]]. Wouldn't you know, that's a coronavirus comic! The father, you see, actually had COVID-19 and died, but Diet Coke and Mentos has brought him back! No. The line should be drawn here. The streak has ended. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.68.197|172.69.68.197]] 17:02, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
::::I agree this is not a serious contender for inclusion as a COVID comic. Although I'm pretty sure Randall has input to COVID19 models as garbage on his mind. But there is nothing in this comic that suggest this math be used on a pandemic. The exa byte is a different story as it is about how much of biology we cannot know or control in the midst of a lot of comics about some new biology we do not control. I do not expect that this will end the covid19 series, but I will consent that even if the next comic is a clear corona comic, it will no longer be an unbroken streak. Anyway the real streak ended at the end of March with the late April Fool's comic. I also do not at all think that the coke mentos could be seen as a COVID19 comic, that is just bulls**t trying to prove a point that I believe you fail completely. I also tried random comic (I like the idea) and found [[1208: Footnote Labyrinths]]. It is a scientific paper (with nested footnotes) and given science, we could say it was about science about Corona. Naah. But for the same reason this comic should not be considered corona. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 20:53, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

:::::I am pretty sure this IS related. Right now, everybody and his grandmother is staring at the Johns Hopkins Coronavirus numbers for different countries. Entire newspaper articles are written about these numbers and about why one country is apparently faring better than the other and what this means. The numbers are made into fancy graphics. People use these numbers to calculate fatality rates and cure rates. Politicians might even use these numbers to make decisions.
:::::And all this even though everybody KNOWS that the numbers cannot really be compared from one country to the other, because testing prerequisites vary, testing availability varies, testing procedures vary, criteria used to include a death as a coronavirus death vary. The sources of the numbers are very different and might not always be reliable. [Apparently, they include local language newspapers, website and even social media accounts. How many people DOES the Johns Hopkins University have to track all these sources reliably, worldwide, in local languages?] And not to forget some countries probably are downright lying.
:::::And still, people are comparing. I've read articles where the author admits the numbers are probably garbage in one sentence and then STILL goes on to calculate fatality rates from them in the next sentence. So, most PROBABLY related.

::::::I challenge you to find a comic in the archive that can't be twisted to say it's related to COVID-19. At this point people are finding connections in the same way that people analyze "the curtain is blue". [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.26|108.162.245.26]] 22:06, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
--[[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.153|141.101.69.153]] 21:53, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

== Math and Error bars ==

Well this is surprising came here thinking I understood it just to see what the discussion looked like. Ended up learning something new. I was able to understand intuitively the comic. But this is my first exposure to actually doing math on the error bars. I think I was supposed to do that in college but I don't remember anyone ever explaining how it should work. --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.63.208|162.158.63.208]] 18:14, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

In recent days, there have been a number of math "quizzes" in this same type of format, albeit generally with only addition and maybe multiplication, appearing on Facebook. Should the explanation include a reference to this as a possible contributing reason for Randall's comic? One could also argue that those quizzes have been appearing on Facebook as a way to spend/waste time during the coronavirus pandemic lock-down, making he comic at least tangentially related to Covid19 LIES.
:: Unsigned vandalism? /\ [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:2295:_Garbage_Math&diff=190866&oldid=190856 change history] @user Please feel free to move your discussion to an appropriate forum and remove both the edit and this comment at such time. [[User:Iggynelix|Iggynelix]] ([[User talk:Iggynelix|talk]])

What's the difference between relative error and absolute error? I don't understand these terms. Maybe add?
: Absolute error is the amount of uncertainty in a value measured as a given number. e.g. 5.7 ± 1.2 means that actual value lies somewhere between 5.7 - 1.2 and 5.7 + 1.2 = 4.5 to 6.9. If you change the 5.7 to another value, you still get the same absolute difference of maximum and minimum values. Relative error depends on the value you are comparing to. e.g. 5.7 ± 10% would be between 5.7 - 0.57 and 5.7 + 0.57 = 5.13 to 6.27. The absolute difference of maximum and minimum would change if the main number changes. e.g. 11.3 ± 10% would be between 10.17 and 12.43, which has a greater absolute difference of maximum and minimum than the previous example. [[User:Nutster|Nutster]] ([[User talk:Nutster|talk]]) 01:54, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Are all of these equations consistent with garbage = infinity?
: Unfortunately, as written, these equations would not make sense by defining Garbage as an infinity. Infinity is not a number you can count to or measure in between integers. Infinity is the idea of unending-ness. Trying to use infinity as if it a finite number yields all sorts of invalid results. In this case Garbage is defined as an arbitrary finite number with a large amount of uncertainty in its value. [[User:Nutster|Nutster]] ([[User talk:Nutster|talk]]) 01:40, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
::: That's a pretty good definition of 'garbage' in ''any'' case, plus or minus 10%. ( See also [https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/06/landfill-mining-recycling-eurelco/ valuable garbage]) [[User:Iggynelix|Iggynelix]] ([[User talk:Iggynelix|talk]]) 14:19, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Would the summation divided by ''n'' just give you the arithmatic mean of the data set? [[User:Nutster|Nutster]] ([[User talk:Nutster|talk]]) 01:55, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
:Pretty much, but the point is probably more that (without consistent bias across the set, just 'random' errors for each item) it suppresses the degree of garbagicity as outliers are increasingly nullified by the greater number of more competently accurate values and (if it's a symmetric error) opposing outliers. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.34.222|162.158.34.222]] 09:29, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

The statement that NaN^0 isn't fully justified and I'm not clear it belongs. [[User:Djbrasier|Djbrasier]] ([[User talk:Djbrasier|talk]]) 18:46, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
: I agree... It also isn't evident to me that this comic has anything to do with floating-point math, which is the only thing that could (even slimly) justify its inclusion. This is about statistics, not programming. --[[Special:Contributions/108.162.215.12|108.162.215.12]] 05:25, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm concerned that, with "Precise Number" there's the usual confusion between Accuracy and Precision (''edit: and of course Resolution, too!''). A precise number can still be utter garbage, as 84.7489327(646475)% of all mathematicians could tell you. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.111.241|162.158.111.241]] 13:59, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Talk:2295: Garbage Math

2020-04-19T22:06:07Z

108.162.245.26:

== Inclusion in Series ==
This is not a Covid19 comic. One could think that this is a comment on the difficulties of modeling the corona virus outbreak, but since discussions of exponential functions are only a small part in the comic I believe it is just a general comment on floating point arithmetic mixed in with statistical considerations. --[[Special:Contributions/108.162.229.242|108.162.229.242]] 17:28, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
:I disagree that this is not a COVID-19 comic. I also believe the one about visualizing large numbers was COVID-19 related. On the other hand, I like the idea that Randall might produce exactly 19 comics related to SARS CoViD 2019, so I'm prepared to concede the point for the sake of arbitrary numerological appeal.
:[[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 18:42, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
::I think Exa-Exabyte was a real stretch (the virus doesn't even have DNA), but there is a tenuous link so whatever. The idea that ''this'' comic is related, on the other hand, stretches past the breaking point. There's hardly anything that can't be linked to global events if we try hard enough, but that doesn't mean there's an actual link. Sometimes a comic about garbage math is just a comic about garbage math. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.71.58|172.69.71.58]] 19:33, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
:::I think this one's much more likely to be a coronavirus comic than Exa-Exabyte was. There's an awful lot of COVID data, much of it either very imprecise or outright garbage; and the comic directly before this one ([[2294]]) involved bad modeling of said COVID data, so clearly COVID data (and its limitations) is something Randall's currently thinking of and drawing comics about. [[User:Pelosujamo|Pelosujamo]] ([[User talk:Pelosujamo|talk]]) 20:25, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
::::Exa-Exabyte was centered around biology, which gives reason to believe it was covid19 related. This one seems much more uncertain. Any conclusion that it is related is based on garbage. Jokes aside, It seems like much more of a stretch to me. Randall thinking in those terms is a reasonable argument, but personally I am going to assume this is the chain breaker unless a direct reference is made in the next couple comics since ending at 19 is would be appropriate. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.70.209|172.69.70.209]]
:: While this comic has no ''direct'' reference to Covid-19 it does appear that the math might be related. At this point we can't know if the series has ended. As such I've edited the paragraph in the explanation to identify the known ambiguities. And now I realize I've made an explanatory paragraph about "knowledge error bars" in the explanation of a comic about numerical error bars.[[User:Iggynelix|Iggynelix]] ([[User talk:Iggynelix|talk]]) 14:42, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
:::No. The reason it appears the math might be related is ''because the math relates to everything, everywhere''. That's not enough of a connection. During this pandemic, there will be a lot of comics related to the coronavirus, many of them in a row, but that doesn't mean that every comic that could be tangentially related if you squint just right should qualify as a COVID-19 comic (I ''still'' think Exa-Exabyte doesn't). There needs to be a real link, because just about ''anything'' could be twisted into a relation if you try hard enough. As a test, I hit [[Special:Random]] and got [[346: Diet Coke+Mentos]]. Wouldn't you know, that's a coronavirus comic! The father, you see, actually had COVID-19 and died, but Diet Coke and Mentos has brought him back! No. The line should be drawn here. The streak has ended. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.68.197|172.69.68.197]] 17:02, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
::::I agree this is not a serious contender for inclusion as a COVID comic. Although I'm pretty sure Randall has input to COVID19 models as garbage on his mind. But there is nothing in this comic that suggest this math be used on a pandemic. The exa byte is a different story as it is about how much of biology we cannot know or control in the midst of a lot of comics about some new biology we do not control. I do not expect that this will end the covid19 series, but I will consent that even if the next comic is a clear corona comic, it will no longer be an unbroken streak. Anyway the real streak ended at the end of March with the late April Fool's comic. I also do not at all think that the coke mentos could be seen as a COVID19 comic, that is just bulls**t trying to prove a point that I believe you fail completely. I also tried random comic (I like the idea) and found [[1208: Footnote Labyrinths]]. It is a scientific paper (with nested footnotes) and given science, we could say it was about science about Corona. Naah. But for the same reason this comic should not be considered corona. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 20:53, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

:::::I am pretty sure this IS related. Right now, everybody and his grandmother is staring at the Johns Hopkins Coronavirus numbers for different countries. Entire newspaper articles are written about these numbers and about why one country is apparently faring better than the other and what this means. The numbers are made into fancy graphics. People use these numbers to calculate fatality rates and cure rates. Politicians might even use these numbers to make decisions.
:::::And all this even though everybody KNOWS that the numbers cannot really be compared from one country to the other, because testing prerequisites vary, testing availability varies, testing procedures vary, criteria used to include a death as a coronavirus death vary. The sources of the numbers are very different and might not always be reliable. [Apparently, they include local language newspapers, website and even social media accounts. How many people DOES the Johns Hopkins University have to track all these sources reliably, worldwide, in local languages?] And not to forget some countries probably are downright lying.
:::::And still, people are comparing. I've read articles where the author admits the numbers are probably garbage in one sentence and then STILL goes on to calculate fatality rates from them in the next sentence. So, most PROBABLY related.

::::::I challenge you to find a comic in the archive that can't be twisted to say it's related to COVID-19. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.26|108.162.245.26]] 22:06, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
--[[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.153|141.101.69.153]] 21:53, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

== Math and Error bars ==

Well this is surprising came here thinking I understood it just to see what the discussion looked like. Ended up learning something new. I was able to understand intuitively the comic. But this is my first exposure to actually doing math on the error bars. I think I was supposed to do that in college but I don't remember anyone ever explaining how it should work. --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.63.208|162.158.63.208]] 18:14, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

In recent days, there have been a number of math "quizzes" in this same type of format, albeit generally with only addition and maybe multiplication, appearing on Facebook. Should the explanation include a reference to this as a possible contributing reason for Randall's comic? One could also argue that those quizzes have been appearing on Facebook as a way to spend/waste time during the coronavirus pandemic lock-down, making he comic at least tangentially related to Covid19 LIES.
:: Unsigned vandalism? /\ [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:2295:_Garbage_Math&diff=190866&oldid=190856 change history] @user Please feel free to move your discussion to an appropriate forum and remove both the edit and this comment at such time. [[User:Iggynelix|Iggynelix]] ([[User talk:Iggynelix|talk]])

What's the difference between relative error and absolute error? I don't understand these terms. Maybe add?
: Absolute error is the amount of uncertainty in a value measured as a given number. e.g. 5.7 ± 1.2 means that actual value lies somewhere between 5.7 - 1.2 and 5.7 + 1.2 = 4.5 to 6.9. If you change the 5.7 to another value, you still get the same absolute difference of maximum and minimum values. Relative error depends on the value you are comparing to. e.g. 5.7 ± 10% would be between 5.7 - 0.57 and 5.7 + 0.57 = 5.13 to 6.27. The absolute difference of maximum and minimum would change if the main number changes. e.g. 11.3 ± 10% would be between 10.17 and 12.43, which has a greater absolute difference of maximum and minimum than the previous example. [[User:Nutster|Nutster]] ([[User talk:Nutster|talk]]) 01:54, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Are all of these equations consistent with garbage = infinity?
: Unfortunately, as written, these equations would not make sense by defining Garbage as an infinity. Infinity is not a number you can count to or measure in between integers. Infinity is the idea of unending-ness. Trying to use infinity as if it a finite number yields all sorts of invalid results. In this case Garbage is defined as an arbitrary finite number with a large amount of uncertainty in its value. [[User:Nutster|Nutster]] ([[User talk:Nutster|talk]]) 01:40, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
::: That's a pretty good definition of 'garbage' in ''any'' case, plus or minus 10%. ( See also [https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/06/landfill-mining-recycling-eurelco/ valuable garbage]) [[User:Iggynelix|Iggynelix]] ([[User talk:Iggynelix|talk]]) 14:19, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Would the summation divided by ''n'' just give you the arithmatic mean of the data set? [[User:Nutster|Nutster]] ([[User talk:Nutster|talk]]) 01:55, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
:Pretty much, but the point is probably more that (without consistent bias across the set, just 'random' errors for each item) it suppresses the degree of garbagicity as outliers are increasingly nullified by the greater number of more competently accurate values and (if it's a symmetric error) opposing outliers. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.34.222|162.158.34.222]] 09:29, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

The statement that NaN^0 isn't fully justified and I'm not clear it belongs. [[User:Djbrasier|Djbrasier]] ([[User talk:Djbrasier|talk]]) 18:46, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
: I agree... It also isn't evident to me that this comic has anything to do with floating-point math, which is the only thing that could (even slimly) justify its inclusion. This is about statistics, not programming. --[[Special:Contributions/108.162.215.12|108.162.215.12]] 05:25, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm concerned that, with "Precise Number" there's the usual confusion between Accuracy and Precision (''edit: and of course Resolution, too!''). A precise number can still be utter garbage, as 84.7489327(646475)% of all mathematicians could tell you. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.111.241|162.158.111.241]] 13:59, 19 April 2020 (UTC)