explain xkcd - User contributions [en]

Talk:1297: Oort Cloud

2025-04-01T22:09:58Z

172.70.163.142: /* Memoriam Link is Outdated */

Reading the Wikipedia page on the Oort Cloud didn't help me understand the joke. I don't know if it has anything to do with comets, or the asteroids getting smashed up by them. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.238.117|108.162.238.117]] 05:15, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
:The asteroid becomes a cost after being severely burnt by the sun. It warns the other asteroid not to go over there. {{unsigned ip|108.162.221.55}}
::Which, the title text indicates, is a warning that's utterly ignored... (Also being "right back" indicates a slower perceived thought process. As is probably the case for anything out there in such cold(-ish) depths of space.) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.229|141.101.99.229]] 11:05, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
::: What does "becomes a cost" mean? is that a slang expression? 12:02, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
:::: I think it's supposed to be "comet". [[Special:Contributions/173.245.52.228|173.245.52.228]] 14:09, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
::::: No, I think he means ghost. All thats left is a faint image after all. {{unsigned ip|141.101.99.214}}
At least according to my freshman year science teacher, the Oort Cloud is just a theory, and hasn't been proven. Perhaps that should be made more clear?{{unsigned|Wasda}}
::::::@Wasda, A theory is something which is proven, if not its a hypothesis or a speculation. Mocking on "theories" is typical for laymen. 15:12, 30 November 2013 (UTC)~
:Theory is the wrong term. Gravity is a theory. Evolution is a theory. The oort cloud is "hypothesized". {{User:Omega/sig}} 06:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
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What's here looks exactly in line with current comet theory: A comet is "perturbed" by interactions with other objects out there, and at that distance the sun is a very bright dot, no more. On return (chancy, based on both/either burning up or being in a no return hyperbolic orbit), what has come back is fragmented and with two tails. What I'm not seeing is the second level joke - it's in the movie "I'm going to check out x" form, but I don't get the specific quote. [[User:FractalgeekUK|FractalgeekUK]] ([[User talk:FractalgeekUK|talk]]) 13:55, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

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According to http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/timeline-of-comet-ison-s-dangerous-journey, ISON's journey to earth from the Oort cloud started "At least a million years ago." So I'm going to edit "many thousand years later" to "several million years later". In other news, I recently played "Das Rad" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-7y3B8DjGw) for my kids and this comic really reminded me of that Oscar-nominated short. I hate lichen! :-) [[User:Tovodeverett|Tovodeverett]] ([[User talk:Tovodeverett|talk]]) 15:10, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

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What's with the "Several million years later" context in the transcription?!? The distances might be vast and all, but i doubt the timeframe is ''that'' long... -- [[Special:Contributions/173.245.51.210|173.245.51.210]]
:See the comment right above yours. [[User:Diszy|Diszy]] ([[User talk:Diszy|talk]]) 18:03, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
::You are discussing editorial elements included in the transcription that have no relationship to the original comic. Regardless of any implied passage of time the comic does not directly state a time-frame that passes and the transcript should only include information contained in the original comic. Any discussion of time-frame should take place in the explanation. The panels imply a pause of unspecific time. The transcript should read the same. [[User:Mrarch|Mrarch]] ([[User talk:Mrarch|talk]]) 16:18, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
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;A comic I did predict yesterday
Uhhh, while I observed that close encounter of ISON at the sun yesterday live I was sure Randall would do a comic on this matter. And he did. That's just funny for me. --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 21:28, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

;When is a comet a comet?

Wikipedia says "A {{w|comet}} is an icy small Solar System body that, when passing close to the Sun, heats up and begins to outgas, displaying a visible atmosphere or coma, and sometimes also a tail." I see no clear suggestion on Wikipedia that a {{w|small Solar System body}} might change from being an asteroid to being a comet each time it passes by the sun and starts to outgas. It seems to me that SSSB's that contain ices and other volatiles that would outgas given enough heat are comets, but I haven't seen that question really addressed clearly by any authoritative sources. For now I'm switching the references to distant comets from "asteroid" to "comet nucleus", which is used on wikipedia and seems like a neutral term for an icy object that would show a cometary atmosphere and tail when close to the sun. Also, the oort cloud is hypothesized to have both a spherical and a disk-like structure, and is part of the solar system. Please discuss further related changes here. Thanks! [[User:Nealmcb|Nealmcb]] ([[User talk:Nealmcb|talk]]) 16:34, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
:The most false understanding is: A comet is a dirty snowball. In fact it's just a snowy rock, most of it is still rock, otherwise it would break up at a distance between Earth and Venus. And all the frozen gases are not only H2O. Furthermore a comet is a comet when we can see its shape, unless that tail is shown it's just a small object at our solar system, not more.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 22:17, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
::The wikipedia references in the article talk of objects out in the Oort cloud as "comet nuclei". Unless you can find better sources, that's what we should go with. [[User:Nealmcb|Nealmcb]] ([[User talk:Nealmcb|talk]]) 14:56, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
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Diameter of the sun: 1,391,000 km

Distance of ISON from sun at perihelion: 1,860,000 km

ISON went within one sun diameter

One of the above statements is false. All are in the explanation. --[[User:Zagorath|Zagorath]] ([[User talk:Zagorath|talk]]) 18:37, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
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Nothing is false. ISON's distance is from the CENTER of the sun. ISON went within one sun diameter distance from the SURFACE. So ISON went closer than 1.5 diameters from the center. 1,391,000 * 1.5 = 2,086,500 which is more than 1,860,000. --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.63.198|173.245.63.198]] 19:28, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

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;A definition for a comet doesn't exist
I did mark the comic as incomplete again. We have to explain that there is no real definition for comets.
*Look at this really big one: {{w|2060 Chiron}}.
*Wiktionary says: "A celestial body consisting mainly of ice, dust and gas in a (usually very eccentric) orbit around the Sun and having a "tail" of matter blown back from it by the solar wind as it approaches the Sun." [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/comet]
*IAU says: "All other objects (except planets and dwarf planets), except satellites, orbiting the Sun shall be referred to collectively as ''Small Solar-System Bodies''". Look for [http://www.iau.org/public_press/news/detail/iau0603/ RESOLUTION 5A]
*And an interesting blog entry at livejournal: [http://suitti.livejournal.com/56460.html?nojs=1 What's the difference between a comet and a planet?]
--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 20:19, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

:Maybe the incomplete tag could be removed again, but this is not my decision because there are maybe still some questions. --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 22:37, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

== Memoriam Link is Outdated ==

The link for "(In Memoriam Comet C/2012 S1 (ISON) Born 4.5 Billion BC, Fragmented Nov 28, 2013, age 4.5-billion yrs old)" currently redirects to a site selling steroids. I'm guessing the domain was stolen. {{unsigned ip|108.162.216.80|17:33, 16 October 2020}}

: Found an archived copy of the original website on Archive.org Wayback Machine, I don't know the policy to add archive links to entries so I'll leave it here in the talk page:
: https://web.archive.org/web/20131203133703/http://www.isoncampaign.org/karl/in-memoriam
: --[[Special:Contributions/104.23.187.37|104.23.187.37]] 21:33, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

:I read the above as "a site selling ''a''steroids", you know. Which... Well, it would only be ''somewhat'' inappropriate, given the purported original content. ;) [[Special:Contributions/172.70.163.142|172.70.163.142]] 22:09, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

Talk:what if? articles

2025-03-29T17:07:06Z

172.70.163.142: /* Striking a match on Titan - additional */

{{TOC}}Note: I moved over the discussion page from my [[User talk:FaviFake|talk page]], which is where the merger of the two what if? indexes was initially coordinated and organized. Most of the topics below were originally created on [[User talk:FaviFake]]. Thanks! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 09:21, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

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==Introduction to coordinate the merger==
Hey! This is intended to be a space to coordinate the merging of the two tables. I see that [[User:1234231587678]] and [[User:Apollo11]] have been helping us create the two tables! I'm messaging you to coordinate a little bit. Since we're the 3 most active editors, let's coordinate!

My idea for the table was the following: there would be one single sortable table instead of two, and the information density would be very high. There were the columns I had in mind:

* N

* Date (the date YYYY-MM-DD, and then includes week after prev. article)

* Thumbnail

* Title (hyperlinked)

* Reader's question

* Randall's answer

* Book - in something like this format: '''WI?2, n. 40''' (BOOK1,2,3, nr. ARTICLE NUMBER), which is easily sortable by book - for unnumbered, use the assumed number with an asterisk like this: 69* - this column would also be color coded, by book - this would also contain the title in the book if different - empty when not in any book

* YT (the date YYYY-MM-DD, and then a hyperlinked link with the YT title. if the title is the same, don't repeat it) empty when not on YT

----

I realise my mistake was listing the things we had to do together with the huge task, merging the tables! So what happened is you both contributed, but each of you contribued to a different table. In an attempt to solve this, i have created my own table, which is ready to receive the two additional columns!

'''I believe this third table (available at [[User:FaviFake]]) is the best option for us to work on the index together, so that once it has the 2 additional columns and contains all the articles, we can put it on the blog page and delete the [[What If? chapters]] table. What do you think?'''

I have also made other adjustments:

*Made the Date column nowrap, so the date doesn't wrap around, and made the first column (N) centered and '''bold'''

*Turned each Reader's question cell italic, and added quotation marks to the start and end of each cell. Ex: HOW OLD? becomes ''"HOW OLD?"''

* In the Randall's answer column, split the rows into one per question. For example, if there are 5 bullet points in 1 cell, split the "Reader's question" and the "Randall's answer" columns into 5 rows for that particular Article so that each question has its own mini-row.

*Added file link to all rows so you can just click to go straight to the upload file page.

*<s>'''Downgrade''': titles aren't hyperlinked</s> - {{Done}} Update: I manually hyperlinked all of them!
'''
*'''Downgrade''': the last ~100 articles are missing. I'll try to add them the day after tomorrow! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 17:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

:Regarding the additional 2 columns: I've been thinking a lot about how we should do them. I see 4 options:

:*'''Option 1: Separate Tables''' - separate tables for the YouTube video information and book information, and link articles across tables using the "N" column (or another unique identifier like the title). Advantages: Keeps sorting straightforward in each table. Maintains the integrity of your original table while allowing for sorting by videos and books in their respective tables. Flexible for adding future metadata. Disadvantages: Requires users to cross-reference between tables, which can be inconvenient.

:*'''Option 2: Expand Rows with Sub-Rows''' - How it works: For each article, add one or two additional sub-rows (One for YouTube video information (e.g., YT video number, link, title, thumbnail), and one for book information (e.g., book number, article number, title, color-coded cell). Advantages: Keeps all information together, visually grouped by article. Makes it easy to see all data without leaving the main table. Disadvantages: Sub-rows might disrupt column sorting. Could make the table visually cluttered for articles with both video and book.

:*'''Option 3: Additional Columns''' - new columns for: (FIRST COLUMN) YouTube video number, link, title, and thumbnail, and, (SECOND COLUMN) Book name, article number, title, and color-coding. Advantages: Sorting by videos or books is easy. Keeps all information in a single row. Disadvantages: The table becomes much wider, which can reduce readability on smaller screens. Many empty cells for articles without video or book.

:I've also thought about using a template. What do you think of the idea of a creating a template like these:

{{Done}} UPDATE: i did create the templates! See the top of [[User:FaviFake]]! <s>

<nowiki>{{yt|YTNUMBER (1, 2, 3, etc)|YTLINK|VIDEOTITLE (optional)}}</nowiki>

:It would be used in the column that we still need to create. It would also colour the cell in '''red'''. I was also thinking of doing a similar thing for the What If? books:

<nowiki>{{bk|WHICH-BOOK|CHAPTER-NUMBER|CHAPTER-TITLE (if different)}}</nowiki>

:For example, it would look like this (This one would also colour the cell based on the book, e.g., green for WI?1, yellow for WI?2, blue for WI10th ed.):

<nowiki>{{book|2|69|Jellyfish}}</nowiki>

What If? 2, chapter '''69: Jellyfish'''

:Would someone be able to create something like this? I know nothing about templates, and i doubt I'll be able to ask chatgpt to do everything for me correctly. --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 10:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)<s>
</s>
==1234231587678==
::I saw your message, and this would be a good idea to coordinate. Maybe also add the missing "Peptides" that was accidentally released on the blog, as index 153 (i think) or have two articles with the same index number, just putting "current" for the current article. --[[User:1234231587678|1234231587678]] ([[User talk:1234231587678|talk]]) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

::Also I think the "0w later" or "1w later" on the comics looks a bit odd, maybe remove them entirely? The dates are already present. --[[User:1234231587678|1234231587678]] ([[User talk:1234231587678|talk]]) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

:::Thanks for replying! I LOVE the idea of inserting the Peptides article directly in the index. It would technically make it a little less official, but I'm all for it. It looks and feels like a proper article.

:::I also fully agree with you regarding the '''1w later''' line! I do like the idea of seeing the frequency right from the index, but it's too much right now. My idea is to remove the "1w later" part, but leave it in for the articles that aren't released a week after the previous one. For example, this would keep the '''2w later''' and '''0w later''' lines for the articles that have them, but declutter the date cells of the "normal" ones. What do you think?

:::I can't do it right now, but it should be easy. We can also delay it until all articles are on the table, so we only have to do it once. Btw, I hope to get all the articles on the table by the day after tomorrow or the day after that. Meanwhile, you or other editors can add the 2 columns (Book and YT)! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 22:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I currently don't have the books, so can't help with that, but I've added a few YT videos. Also the book template seems to be buggy (and/or a WIP), so I removed it from the 1st article. ALSO, the YT template display {5}th instead of 5th; weird. --[[User:1234231587678|1234231587678]] ([[User talk:1234231587678|talk]]) 15:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

:Thank you so much! I fixed the YT template, let me know if there are any other issues. Also, you '''can''' help with books, even if you don't have them! All you need to do is look at the page [[What If? chapters]], which catalogues every chapter of every book. The <s>[[Template:book]]</s> i was trying to create is broken because I gave up trying to make it work (1h and 20min of my life wasted). Anyways, we now have 4 different templates, one for each book (the fourth is a placeholder!): [[Template:book1]], [[Template:book2]], [[Template:book3]], [[Template:book4]]. There are instructions on hot to use them on their page. Please continue adding the videos and the books if you can! This is exactly what we need! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 15:18, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

==Apollo11==
This a big page so I’m not sure I’m in the right spot (also typing one handed so sorry for mistakes). I like the table on you page, however I did notice it’s missing which book it’s in and the YouTube channel. I love how the one I edited was formatted, I think if you added that table to your existing table it’d be perfect. I would also add a page number for the books. [[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 16:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok just saw the three options. I’d go with either 1 or 3. 1 would look the best and probably be easiest to find what you’re looking for as long as your have links to the other tables very clear. What I would do is have a table with title, and where to find the article (blog, book 1, book 2, YouTube). Then have a 4 tables, one for each, where you can go more in depth about each article, date, explanation, jokes, things like that. Option 3 would be the simplest, and if that’s what you wanna do, I’d have the simplest things on the left and the more complicated things on the right. So the date and title would be in the left and the e explanation would be far to the right. You’ve probably been thinking about this a lot longer than me so I’m probably missing something, so please tell me if I’m wrong abo it anything. Also if my comment is in the wrong spot feel free to move me to the right conversation. I’d love to help in anyway!! Just give me directions and I’ll do by best!! [[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 16:58, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

: Thanks so much for your interest! I thought about it a lot today, and i landed on 1, huge, information-laden table. I think having 3 or 4 tables would be too confusing and too hard to navigate. Plus, i think i found a good way to avoid making the table too wide. I added a few articles to showcase it. I don't have a lot of time to do all of them. Regarding the page number, I used the chapter number since it's easier for people who don't own the books.

: > I’d love to help in anyway!! Just give me directions and I’ll do by best!!
: Love it! You can do everything that's listed at the top of [[User:FaviFake]], but the first one might be more annoying to do on a phone (I'm not sure where you're editing from, actually). If you don't understand something on that page, please do let me know. I promise i'll answer quicker next time. ;) --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 20:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

:: Looks great!! I’ll get on it sometime early next week!! (Ftr I’m usually on a phone but sometimes I’ll go over to a computer for bigger projects, like added links and full researched paragraphs) [[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 20:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

::: Amazing! I hope I'll have added all the missing articles by the day after tomorrow. --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 21:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

==Adding the book-exclusive articles==
I noticed that there’s not a column for if the article is in the blog. I also don't think some of the ones in the book that aren’t on the blog are in there. Please correct me if I’m wrong. [[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 18:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

:Yeah, I’ve noticed that some of the What If? Chapters aren’t in the table. I think that we should add them in too '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 18:42, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you all for pointing it out! And again sorry it took me so long, I'm not good at prioritising. (but at least today i did something! I fixed both the YouTube template, there are new instructions on [[User:FaviFake]], and the book templates when used in merged cells. Anyways!)
::I had forgotten the other table also contained the book-exclusive questions! Of course we should add them! We need to think about this before doing anything though. I have so many questions!

*In what order do we put them? Unfortunately, the chapter of the book are mixed between non-excusive and exclusive.
*Do we need all the columns?
N Date Thumbnail Title Reader's question Randall's answer Books YouTube
**What happens to the unnecessary columns? We could merge them, but I'm not sure whether the sorting will work if we merge them.
*Should we change the columns, so that the '''blog number''' column is more similar to the '''Book''' and '''YouTube''' columns? Or are blog articles more important because they fill all the cells, while book-exclusives don't have all the same info?
*Is there ANY way you can think of to make the insertion of these articles into the existing index seamless? I'm usually on the side of one big index instead of many little indexes, but I'm having a hard time figuring this out. One of the main reasons I wanted to do this project was so that people wouldn't need to move between 2 different tables to see all articles.

::One way could be to just add all book-exclusive articles, each in their own row, in a big dump on the release date of the book. Even tho it would technically be in chronological order, i don't really like the idea. Please send all your thought! There must me something I'm not thinking of, or something I've been thinking wrong about! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 18:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

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::* What order do we put them in
:: I would do it in the same order as the other table, blog articles first in chronological, what if chapters in chapter order. I believe the YouTube channel is all old questions, but if he posts a new one, then put that below the books.
::* change blog columns
::I think you should move the blog date and number to after randalls answer, similar to the books, and for the date for book exclusives maybe jus the book release date? Or NA.
::* unessery colums
:: Example?
::* Seamless integration
::Just stick them on the bottom, the exact same way you’d put another blog article on the bottom.
::I think that covers it all? [[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 19:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

:::Sticking the chapters at the end was the same idea I had, and I think that we can just put (What If? Exclusive) inside the date part of the table. '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 19:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

::::Thanks for replying so quickly! I don't have time right now to read everything but I can already tell that this is much easier than I thought it would be. I'll answer tomorrow. Before i start overthinking everything: What would you put inside the columns thumbnail, Question, and Answer? Just empty? I'm trying to think of something useful.
::::Also, what do you think of merging the N (blog) column and the Date columns, just like we do with the YouTube column? Would there be any downsides?
:::: I hope I'm not preventing it edits by not adding the articles quickly, in the meantime you can help by adding YT videos, now that the template works! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 21:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

::::: I think that the YT videos are all added? At least the blog ones and not the What If? exclusive ones. Or maybe Restricted Mode on my home wifi is blocking some. But I think that it’s all done? Tried my best anyways '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 03:52, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

::::::This is great news, thanks! I didn't know there were YouTube videos on book-exclusive articles! I'll get started, this is my plan:
::::::*The book articles are positioned like the old [[What If? chapters]] table.
::::::*New column setup:
Thumbnail Title Reader's question Randall's answer '''Blog (this contains both N and Date)''' Books YouTube
::::::*The sometimes-unnecessary columns are left empty.
::::::*The '''Blog''' column is more similar to the '''Book''' and '''YouTube''' columns: it has a template and colors the cell light blue.

::::::I feel great about this! We're getting near the finish line. --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 15:36, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I think that I added all the What If? And What If? 2 chapters to the table for the ones that were copied from the blog '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 23:48, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Love it! I hope i'll be able to add some of the missing articles today, but i might not be able to do them all (or any at all). --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 18:01, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

::::::::{{Done}} I did it! You can now add the missing YT videos :) {{unsigned|FaviFake|20:49, 24 January 2025 (UTC)}}

:::::::::Doing it now! '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 21:24, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::based on the 20 videos that I can see on the YT channel, ALL YT VIDEOS HAVE BEEN ADDED! '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 21:39, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::We actually did it! Now all that's left are the explanations, which i'm sure people will prefer doing over merging 2 wikipedia tables. There's just one small problem: I searched for "Featured in What If?," and instead of 69 results, i got 67. This means two of the articles that are both in the book and in the blog haven't been added. Do you think you could figure out which ones? I also checked the other book and the YouTube videos, and they're all there, it's just the first book. Again, thank you so much for all your work, it would've likely taken weeks to get to this point without your efforts! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 11:21, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

ok, i’ll poke around and see if i can find them. also, I GOT WHAT IF? 10TH ANNIVERSARY! i can add the bonus chapter that is at the end-it’s basically “what if we tried more power” when blasting away at the moon with lasers. '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 21:22, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

:Congrats on the book! I didn't buy it because i have the original, it's great that someone here owns it. Can you describe in a little more detail the last chapter? I don't understand a few things: does the second YouTube video say exactly the same thing as the blog article? Why are there two videos about 1 article? Or is the second YT video only about the Bonus Chapter in the book, which goes even further than the blog article? Is that bonus chapter not in any other book or blog? Thanks! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 11:13, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
:Also, is the chapter only called Bonus Chapter, or does it also have other names? --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 18:15, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

==Sorting "Chapter xx.."==
Hi... An alternative to the way you are lead-zeroing the text cell's numeric suffix, for sorting purposes, which is what I think {{diff|363528|this is all about}}, would be to do so something like:
... || data-sort-value={{{1}}} | Chapter {{{1}}} || ...
Should be able to deal with any numeric value, while still rendering it simply as "Chapelter 1"/"Chapter 10"/"Chapter 100"/ etc, but adding ''data-sort-type="number"'' to the header cell might even be able to sort not-quite-numbers, should a future book ever do chapters like "... 7, 7a, 9, 10, 11, 12, 12b, 14, ...".
 Perhaps even ''data-sort-value=<booknumber>.<chapternumber>'' would be useful. Though you'd have to use the sufficient-leading-zeroes method, again, and could start at 1.0000001 ''just'' in case there's ever a million (but not more than 10mil-1) chapters in a future bookbut would probably be useful to sort all book-contained items, across all books but not interleaved.
 I'll let you consider if/what you find it more useful. And perhaps check if I've given you the right table markup options by going and checking the Help:Sorting Tables/whatever pages. ;) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.107|141.101.99.107]] 00:01, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

:I agree that the current method isn't great, and I'm very glad to see there's another, better way. Unfortunately, I don't really understand most of what you said. BUT! You seem very experienced and I don't have a lot of time, so it would be perfect if you could edit directly the templates/table/cells/whatever needs to be changed. The best option is to remove the leading zeroes and still make the sorting work, for the blog, books, and YT templates. If you (or someone else) could do that, it'd be wonderful. Please feel free to try it yourself if you want! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 11:13, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

== weird table bugs ==

hey favifake, i found two bugs that i don’t really know how to fix in the table: one of them is in regard to the what if 2 template, whenever it has a “S2” or a “W1” “chapter” it gives an error. the second bug can be found on the laser pointer row-i added the what if? 10th anniversary template, but the yt template doesn’t “fit” (for lack of a better word) with the table. could you dig into these and try to figure out what has gone wrong? thanks! '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 00:55, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

:Hey 42! I saw what you were trying to do, i think i fixed it now? I removed the '''book3''' template from the original '''Laser Pointer''' row because all original articles are technically in the 10th Ann. book. (i added "exclusively on" to the '''book3''' template to make it clearer). Regarding the other S1 bug, i don't know why but it seems fixed now?? I saw the error just a few hours ago and now it works. I have no idea what happened. Let me know if it reappears or something. --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 11:13, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

----

:Without going in and trying it myself, is this because of the "trying to zero-pad a number" thing (as given a possible alternative, above), because it can't test if <usually number, in this case text> is greater/less than <static number>?
:Quick-fix (not doing anything else new) would need the test enclosed with an isthisanumber? test (if so, do zero-padding testing, etc; if not, maybe don't try).
:Exactly how S2/W1 sorts (or doesn't) using the sorting data (bare number only!) and/or the forced data type as number (to do its best for what numeric data it is presented, despite occasional non-numeric interloping characters), would need testing.
:Or I misunderstand. But, ''if'' I don't, maybe this is useful additional pointer to a solution/acceptance of the problem. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.123|172.71.178.123]] 01:21, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

::IP user, I answered above. :) --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 11:13, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
== Interesting streamlined 'table furniture', but... ==

...I'm wondering about the current (slight) usage differences between:
style="text-align:center" | {{{1}}}
and:
style="white-space:nowrap" |
Do you need to add the Param1 to the nowrap/remove if from the text-alignment?

And what if someone wanted no-wrap+centre at the same time? There maybe ''are'' ways to combine <code><nowiki>{{ac|<foo>}}</nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki>{{nw}}</nowiki></code>, but it seems non-trivial to to do. (Unless you make a <code><nowiki>{{nwac}}</nowiki></code>, but then where do you end?) I'm wondering if you should try it without the |-character.

Let's see if that ''could'' work:
{| class="wikitable" style="margin:auto"
|+ Test
|-
! Foo !! Bar !! Baz
|-
| Normal text of a normal style || style="text-align:center" style="white-space:nowrap" | This is as if using variations <code><nowiki>{{ac|<foo>}}</nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki>{{nw}}</nowiki></code> as rendered without the pipe-character or inconsistent parameter, which is tricky to demonstrate with the actual templates.|| More normal text of a normal style
|-
| Normal text of a normal style || style="text-align:center" | style="white-space:nowrap" | This is how <code><nowiki>{{ac|{{nw}} <foo>}}</nowiki></code> might look || More normal text of a normal style
|-
| Normal text of a normal style || {{ac|{{nw}} This is how <code><nowiki>{{ac|{{nw}} <foo>}}</nowiki></code> ''does'' look, using the current state of the templates.
----
<s>''NB. Why is it in bold? Is that a normal feature of a style of text-align:center?''</s>}}
| More normal text of a normal style
|-
| Normal text of a normal style || style="white-space:nowrap" | style="text-align:center" | This is how <code><nowiki>{{nw}} {{ac|<foo>}}</nowiki></code> might look || More normal text of a normal style
|-
| Normal text of a normal style || {{nw}} {{ac|This is how <code><nowiki>{{nw}} {{ac|<foo>}}</nowiki></code> ''does'' look, using the current state of the templates.}}
----
<s>''Also goes bold, I notice!''</s>
| More normal text of a normal style
|}

So, yes, it looks like it might be better to just remove the pipe (or pipe-and-param) and rely on the table-writer to just put in the relevent bare style-giving {{}} (or {{}}s) before the pipe. (I must look into why there's unexpected boldness. I don't know if that comes from the way you templated it or as an associated function of the aligh-center style. But it doesn't appear when I do it 'raw'.) Anyway, food for thought, over to you. It looks like I ''could'' edit your templates, but that might be rude, and would of course instantly break whatever it is you're currently using them (singly) for. That's the ''What If?'' table, I suppose? Anyway, you can both 'fix' how they work and adjust how they are invoked, rather than leaving me to guess about the latter. ;) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.49|162.158.74.49]] 19:04, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
:PS: Yes, I have just checked, and, yes you've added (apparently ''after'' I saw and copied the original {{template|ac}} for my own testing and emulating purposes!) the bolding to the aligh-centering template. That part of the mystery is solved! :P [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.49|162.158.74.49]] 19:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
:PPS: I know what happened. I copied the (slightly '''formatted''') 'plaintext' as it appeared in the template. If I'd have edited it and copied the wikisource then I'd have grabbed the <nowiki>'''formatted''</nowiki> as you already had it by the time I passed by. Don't mind me, it was just something that made me wonder. Probably moreso than the thing that I was ''actually'' trying to prod and poke and solve! IOW: Ignore me. On this bit, at least! [[Special:Contributions/172.68.205.151|172.68.205.151]] 19:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

::I love how interested you are about this! Honestly i'm not really sure what exactly it is you're asking, but you seem very smart so do whatever you want! My only request is that the {{:ac}} thing keeps working as expected, so i don't have to change the table again. I had forgotten about the {{:nw}} thing, you can delete it or change it or do anything else, I don't use it anymore. Feel free to add to the documentation that these are just for 1 table and might break everything if used anywhere else. Or, if they already work everywhere, great! I remember I created them expecting the entire page to be destroyed when used, and being pleasantly surprised when they worked. So yeah go wild! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 21:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I'm not going to make any change without taking time to check your tables and making sure the appropriate change doesn't inflict damage on your attempts to curate the tables you're probably using it for.
:::But, in short, I understand that you're streamlining the (often longwinded) style="" statements, an admirble task. In the structure of "| cell || another cell || etc", you're doing something to save from having to do cumbersome "| cell || style="this-style: that; that-style: that; the-other-style: the.other" | another cell || etc", all of which makes editing 'difficult'. (I tend to do such things in Notepad, or whatever separate text editor I have, which lets me add temporary whitespace and use with no-wrap on the markup while I'm working on it, rather than in this textbox editor.)
::: But the single-pipe that formats the cell isn't a ''great'' difficulty to maintain (indeed, it is useful to line up). As such I'd suggest "| cell || <nowiki>{{??}}</nowiki> | another cell || etc" would be as good. i.e. leave the pipe (intended for the table-cell) out of the template. For the no-wrap version, that's easy enough. Though I do understand that you want to put bold-format about the cell contents, so that's why you give it as a param and explicitly bold the Param1 as you pass it back out.
::: Maybe the solution to ''that'' is to also add (to the style, along with the text-align:center) the "font-weight: bold" doublet. Then "... || <format(s), as templates and/or raw> | Cell Text || ..." doesn't ''need'' to 'enclose' the Cell Text in any way.
::: But making the change from something that expects to transclude the range of the template "... || format | Cell Text || ..." to "... || format | Cell Text || ..." obviously requires that each and every table-cell item that uses "... || <nowiki>{{template|Cell Text}}</nowiki> || ..." to be converted to "... || <nowiki>{{template}}</nowiki> | Cell Text || ...", or... it'll definitely not work as it was originally set.
::: Anyway, that's just my own vision of how you can do what you seem to have wanted to, without introducing more complications. As the cell-formatting gladly accepts multiple statements of the form style="..." (it adds <code>style="..." style="..." style="..."</code> together, much as <code>style="...; ...; ..."</code> does), an editor now has complete freedom to compound the two format-templates you created. And any additional ones that might be useful. Such ones to usefully colour cell backgrounds as red/yellow/green (for use on the various Confusion Tables), something that I sometimes take a couple of goes to do... not least because I habitually spell 'color' as 'colour'..! ;)
::: ...but that's just to explain so that (should you/anybody else wish to follow my own instincts on the matter), you have some decent idea of what I'm getting at. There are probably other ways of doing it. Templates can be made to detect and extract pipes, so that "... || <nowiki>{{template1|{{templete2|Cell Text}}}}</nowiki> || ..." ''or'' "... || <nowiki>{{template2|{{templete1|Cell Text}}}}</nowiki> || ..." would equally produce "... || templateOneOrTwoFormat templateTwoOrOneFormat | Cell Text || ...", but that would take a degree of of unwieldy parameter-processing functions (that I'd have to work out, probably would involve some subst-function, but might depend upon what's available in the installed mediawiki version). I just think you could avoid all that trouble! [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.118|162.158.74.118]] 22:51, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

:::Forgot to say, that for what you want to use it for, there's ''another'' way:
{| class="wikitable" style="margin:auto"
|+ Example 2
|-
! Number (Centered) !! Foo !! Bar (Centered) !! Baz
|-
! 1
| Normal text of a normal style
! Some text of whatever size (centered)
| More normal text of a normal style
|-
! 2
| Normal text of a normal style
! Some text of whatever size (also centered, though not so obviously so)
| More normal text of a normal style
|}
:::... This is only possible by newlining each new cell, in the example (you can't do "! cell || cell !! cell || cell", you have to line-break it as you change from "!"-/"|"-starting cell-groups), but it isn't really so great a loss to do so.
:::The "wikitable" class gives these 'header cells' a different background too, but (if you really don't like that) it that can be adjusted in various other ways (including with scope="col", I think), or you can leave the wikitable class off (it centres and bolds, but doesn't give cell-borders) and re-add the whole-table bordering style that this now leaves out. But you really don't want me listing ''every'' idea I had, just this one was the other (template-free) option to enforcing centre-aligning bold text on ''certain'' cells. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.119|162.158.74.119]] 23:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

::::Huh, I was actually thinking of doing the opposite of what you're suggesting: include even more pipes inside the template so the editor is cleaner and easier to use. (UPDATE: this probably worse than the other option you gave at the end, see below). So instead of this:

|-
<nowiki>| {{ac|4}} || </nowiki>

::::You would just use this:

|-
<nowiki>{{ac|4}}</nowiki>

::::And it would contain all the pipes needed. I guess then we would have to update the documentation to point out that this template's use case is extremely narrow. Also, if you want to see how it is currently used, the table is on my user page! That's the only place where it's used

::::Since you seem very interested in templates, What do you think of the idea of a creating a template like these:

<nowiki>{{yt|YTNUMBER (1, 2, 3, etc)|YTLINK|VIDEOTITLE (optional)}}</nowiki>

::::It would be used in the column that we still need to create. It would also colour the cell in '''red'''. I was also thinking of doing a similar thing for the What If? books:

<nowiki>{{bk|WHICH-BOOK|CHAPTER-NUMBER|CHAPTER-TITLE (if different)}}</nowiki>

::::For example, it would look like this: (This one would also colour the cell based on the book, e.g., green for WI?1, yellow for WI?2, blue for WI10th ed.)

<nowiki>{{book|2|69|Jellyfish}}</nowiki>

What If? 2, chapter '''69: Jellyfish'''

::::Would you be able to create something like this? I know nothing about templates, and i doubt I'll be able to ask chatgpt to do everything for me correctly. --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 07:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::> Forgot to say, that for what you want to use it for, there's ''another'' way:
:::::Oh, i think i had forgotten to read this part!! This seems very interesting! I should try that, since it seems much simpler. --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 10:10, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::'''Update:''' {{Done}} I applied your suggestion, now the numbers are in their own row:
|-
!1
| The rest of the table
--[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 10:33, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

== What If Chapters ==
Hey FaviFake, there are some What If? Chapters that aren’t included in the blog. Are we going to add them to the table? '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 17:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

:Great timing! You sent me this message while i was in the process of replying to the question. I'm not good at prioritising, I should've definitely responded before doing other edits. Check out my <s>list of questions for y'all</s> reply above! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 18:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

== YouTube template ==
Hey FaviFake, on the <code><nowiki>{{yt}}</nowiki></code> template, you asked for help on fixing the code of the template. What help do you need to “improve” it? I’m willing to help now that I’m not sick, as I was last week. '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 18:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

:Thank you! Glad to hear you're healthy. That message was mostly a joke, but it is in fact barely held together. (Try modifying the hyperlink that's displayed when a title isn't provided, somehow what you add gets duplicated??) If you have the time and know how to make it more reliable and easily editable in the future, please do! I am honstly scared to touch it fearing it might explode.

:Buuut, to be fair there is one template that i desperately needed help with, and that is [[:Template:book]]. I wasted a ton of time to try to get it to change the cell background, and it never worked, so i decided to create [[Template:book1]], [[Template:book2]], [[Template:book3]], [[Template:book4]], and these do work beaytifully, but are harder to edit in bulk. (I still have profound hatred towards [[Template:book]]...). If you actually manage to do what i wanted (which i'm not sure is even clear after the all the mess i've made... ask me if you can't figure it out!), I would be very grateful. PS. I'm not sure if i should warn you, given my very low ability to create templates, but it's definitely not easy, imo.

:I'm not sure how skilled you are at template editing, so if you want, you can absolutely continue uploading the What If? thumbnails like you did a few days ago! I just added [[User:FaviFake|a new batch of articles]] (about 60) thanks to some annoyingly complex jailbreaking of Google's NotebookLM. The new table of course includes the quick 100px link to upload a file. Again, thanks for reaching out! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 19:04, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

::The YT link appears to be going to <nowiki>[[whatever the name of the YouTube video is called]]</nowiki> and not acting as a [youtube.com filler thingy] linking to a YouTube video. I’m going to hit the books on template writing and try to see if I can do anything about it. Cheers! '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 03:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

:::Oh great, that's broken too. I didn't even realise it. Thanks!--[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 04:57, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

:Partly because you've removed the bit about how to better sort the book-column elements, but are using the same trick in the youtube-column, and partly because it's easier (more on that in a moment), I've just modified the {{template|yt}} to give it the sort value (of article number) directly. Have not removed the expression test to make "6th video ..." into "06th video ...", for sorting purposes, but I feel confident that you ''can'' do that (and remove the comment about making it give "006th video ...", in future, should that become necessary) if you now so wish.

:For the books, I was thinking that if, instead of <code>="<nowiki>{{{1|0}}}</nowiki>"</code>, you could maybe use <code>="<nowiki>{{#expr:10000+{{{1|0}}}}}</nowiki>"</code> for ''What If?'' (in {{template|book1}}) and <code>="<nowiki>{{#expr:20000+{{{1|0}}}}}</nowiki>"</code> for ''What If? 2'' (in {{template|book2}}), to let it sort by book ''and then'' chapter within book...

:For ''What If? 10th Anniversary Edition'' ({{template|book3}}), I was thinking if you could make the added-to number 11000. Though anything from above 10000+<last chapter number> and below 20000-<last chapter number> would do (and 15000 would work), it leaves room to make any appearance of the 15th anniversary, 20th anniversary, 42nd anniversary, ..., 95th anniversary be able to use the mnemonic offsets of 11500+, 12000+, 14200+, ..., 19500+.. ;) Obviously, it would need revamping if there becomes a centenary edition of Book 1 (or any version of it ever gets ''so many'' "bonus chapters" that it breaks out of its own sequence into the next extant anniversary edition. But you'd need to start adding 100 newly-numbered chapters ''per year'' to do that, so probably not likely. But, right now, the sorting on the "Exclusive to ''What If? 10th Anniversary Edition''" line sorts ''before'' the "NNth chapter of ''What If?''" lines. The above should fix that...

:And the format can be used for other (future?) books and their (possible) reissues: For ''What If? '''N''''', reissued '''YY''' years after the original, that's the number "NYY00", to which you add the chapter number. Fairly futureproofed, but if Randall ''ever'' publishes anything that makes you need to make the offset "NNYYY000" (e.g. for the quarter-of-a-millenium reissue of ''What If? 15'', having a total of 512 chapters being 15250000+[1..512]) then I reckon the requisite changes will be easy enough to handle as and when, swapping in the expanded offset. And... hey... if they're still being written, ''and'' published, then I can only hope I'm still around to be able to add that edition to my bookshelf!

:You could even redo the {{template|book}} idea (parameters of ...|book=#|chapter=#|optional:edition=#?|...) to only ever need to maintain the one source with ''all'' this flexibility. You've already got experience (by the 1st/2nd/3rd/Nth code) with what's needed to translate Book Number(+Edition Number, if applicable) into unique background colour codes.

:The big problem, though, is still the non-numeric chapter 'numbers' in ''WI?2''. I have two (or three) different thoughts about that.

:*For only the numeric bits (currently, in the test for less-than-10, etc; in the above for within the <code>data-sort-value="..."</code>) you might want to switch <code><nowiki>{{{1|0}}}</nowiki></code> with <code><nowiki>{{#if:{{#ifexpr:{{{1|0}}}}}|99|{{{1|0}}}}}{{{1|0}}}</nowiki></code>... This should test the param1 value for being a valid value (or missing, when you already make it zero... though not sure for what circumstance you should consider it validly missing) and using it if it is so, or else using the value "99" (or you could have "0", or "0.5", or whatever floats your boat). Then at least you'd get ''a'' value (that doesn't cause errors), though it probably wouldn't be sorted very precisely (though appear just after/before all other chapters of the book).

:*The other idea is to use <code><nowiki>{{{effectiveChapter|{{{1|0}}}}}}</nowiki></code>, then you can append a parameter of <code>...|effectiveChapter=11.5}}</code> to a non-numeric one sitting between actual chapters 11 and 12 (I haven't checked if that's an actual example, but imagine it is...). Also, for multiple items on page-chapter, you could even have =11.51, =11.52, =11.53, etc, to retain order within the book and ''upon the page''... (You could also give effectiveChapter as "NYYCC(.optional)" format, direct, for ''all'' what if? Numbers, YYearly-editions and CChapters (with possibly sub-positions), come to that, but I don't see that as any simpler a solution as building it in.)

:*The third option would be to use (for hidden sorting-only purpose, mostly) a value of P(.optionalDecimal) either as another numeric parameter or a named one, with P as ''page number'', not chapter number. But, given how hardback vs. paperback (or just another imprint, not necessarily even a Anniversary redo, but I've got the UK edition with an additional UK foreword) ''might'' effect page numbers and/or where end-of-pages interupts any given chapter internals, it's possible that this is not consistent enough. But food for thought, maybe. Only needs to be definitively done once (or thoroughly checked and shuffled along as nevessary if redone to include other changes that require consistency).

:Any of that make sense? Hopefully I've at least given you enough examples to ponder, where not immediately obvious. I'd ''really'' rather not change all your hard work just for the sake of a minor cosmetic change with a possibly major set of retouches, which is one of the reasons why I thought I'd do just the basic Youtube 'sort assisting' bit and let those of you who have already had so much 'fun' (tweaking the table formats) decide if and how you make full use of it. Assuming it isn't (differently) broken, for whatever reason may crop up, it shouldn't be a problem if you do nothing at all more with it (either in the {{template|yt}} or {{template|book#}}s). [[Special:Contributions/172.71.241.26|172.71.241.26]] 14:38, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

*Thank you so much! Would you mind if I moved your message to [[Talk:What If? chapters]], to group everything regarding the index in one place?  Anyways:
*I did the thing on the yt and {{template|blog}} one and it works!

For the books, I was thinking that if, instead of <code>="<nowiki>{{{1|0}}}</nowiki>"</code>, you could maybe use <code>="<nowiki>{{#expr:10000+{{{1|0}}}}}</nowiki>"</code> for ''What If?'' (in {{template|book1}}) and <code>="<nowiki>{{#expr:20000+{{{1|0}}}}}</nowiki>"</code> for ''What If? 2'' (in {{template|book2}}), to let it sort by book ''and then'' chapter within book...
*Done! Thanks! For ({{template|book3}}) i used 30000 to have the chapter in chronological order.

You could even redo the {{template|book}} idea
*Sorry but I'm not touching that... ''thing'' anymore. That template traumatized me (jk! if you want to try fixing it i'd be very happy)

For only the numeric bits (currently, in the test for less-than-10, etc; in the above for within the <code>data-sort-value="..."</code>) you might want to switch <code><nowiki>{{{1|0}}}</nowiki></code> with <code><nowiki>{{#if:{{#ifexpr:{{{1|0}}}}}|99|{{{1|0}}}}}{{{1|0}}}</nowiki></code>... This should test the param1 value for being a valid value (or missing, when you already make it zero... though not sure for what circumstance you should consider it validly missing)
*I'm not sure why that's needed (and also how to actually implement it). What happens if the value is invalid? it seems to work. Or is it required for the other improvements you suggested?

The other idea is...
The third option would be...
*Yeah this seems pretty hard to solve easily (which is why i'd love it if you did it!). I guess it'll stay slightly broken until it becomes a bigger issue. --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 16:54, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

::It seems like you just forgot to escape pipe characters in the [[Template:book|book template]] in the table within the switch statement, so it just interpreted the non-formatting statements to be a case grouped with the next 'actual' case [[User:Firestar233|guess who]] ([[User talk:Firestar233|if you desire conversing]] | [[Special:Contributions/Firestar233|what i have done]]) 07:23, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
::BTW I fixed the book template. It should now appear the same as the other templates, and even work with the youtube template [[User:Firestar233|guess who]] ([[User talk:Firestar233|if you desire conversing]] | [[Special:Contributions/Firestar233|what i have done]]) 09:13, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

:::OMG THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! IT ACTUALLY WORKS! What! How! Why!
:::Thanks so much for fixing the template! I can't describe how glad I am to see it working as (and even better than) I wanted. My life is finally complete. I have switched to using your template in the index.
:::The reason there was a YT link in one of the {{template|book}} documentation examples is because I was going insane and likely pasted it there by accident. From what I can tell, you seem to have set up {{template|book}} so well that {{template|book}} accepts a YouTube link as input, while the {{template|yt}} template it's based on doesn't if used by itself (requires only the ID). I love this! Since we're gonna have many YT videos to add, it's great to have a much simpler option which doesn't require extracting the ID of the video. Is there a way you could maybe incorporate this improvement into {{template|yt}} itself? Or maybe you're 10 steps ahead of me and you've already done it (which wouldn't surprise me given the amount of wizardry you used on these bad boys!), and I just didn't notice. Please let me know! And again, thank you so much!!! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 17:56, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
:::Also, since you've already rendered 4 templates useless thanks to your improvements, why not also add {{template|yt}} to the list of pages to delete, by incorporating it into {{template|book}}? This, unlike {{template|book}}, is absolutely not needed, and I also have no idea if it's as easy as a simple copy-and-paste, or if it requires more work. If it's the latter, please don't do it if you don't want to! I'm just throwing ideas around! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 18:04, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

That IP, here. I (think) I fixed the sorting ''and'' error-fallback issues. I think (without trying to roll back to how you had it) you 'broke the sort' by putting in line-feeds (maybe double-ones), that messed up the table/cell handling. Then you broke the handling by commenting out too much (you needed to "< ! - -" and "- - >", without spaces, without crossing the quotes and |ing boundaries in data-sort-value="..." style="..." and the 'release', by pipe symbol, to cell-contents).
 Recommented for it to work normally, first without the new 'sort assistance' and then with again. Had a look at the error-catcher (went down a blind alley, at first) and made it an explicit "catch all other inputs" for the errororing display, which I formatted in a more obvious manner ''and'' forced to sort to the start. (Well, almost the start. It puts empty cells with no sorting 'ahead' of even the -999 value I made it give any error-caught cells.)
 If it were me, I'd be happy to have {{template|yt}} entirely separate from the {{template|book}} handling. It is mnemonically confusing and adds needless (and possibly error-prone) "if we have far too many params for Book template, feed it all into the Youtube template". Unless you're folding the ''whole'' Youtube template into the body of the Book one (even more work to maintain/debug), it's just adding complication for both server and editors who feel forced to use it. The beauty of the monolithic Book template is that (otherwise identical) "Book N, chapter C, optional new title T" information is trivially similar between different Ns. But it's not my project.
 I'll have a dig about in maybe how to have a table sort "valueless" cells (in reality the empty value of cell absolutely without anything in it) beyond the sort-valued ones. The 'easiest' means I could imagine is to accept <nowiki>{{book|0}}</nowiki>, needing no further params, to create a <code>data-sort-value="999999" |''<blank>''</code> cell-definition, and have every book-column cell without a book-reference explicitly use that (ditto for <nowiki>{{yt|0}}</nowiki> to have the same pre-trap to it). But seems wasteful. A template <nowiki>{{empty}}, or even something like {{e}},</nowiki> (without checking if either of those are free names) could also just give us this behaviour straight off, of course. It's potentially a lot of fuss to make consistent and flexible enough, either way.
 But what I already did probably also needs to be checked for more edge-conditions... I may still have to tweak things when I have a better chance of catching errors (very difficult, on a tablet), and quicker. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.196|172.70.162.196]] 21:32, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
:I also think that the book template shouldn't be used for the videos, on the basis that youtube is not a book.
:for the default cell, it would probably take no arguments (i.e. just <nowiki>{{yt}}</nowiki>), and it would also probably be it's own template rather than implemented on each template. However, I have done some digging, and empty cells (cells with no sort value) are given a value of "-infinity", so they sort as the absolute minimum no matter what sort method is used (which means always at the top when sorting ascending). I have been looking to find a way to make a row always sort to the bottom regardless of sort order if the column that is sorted has an empty/valueless cell at that row, but if it exists, it is not documented.
:Interestingly, it is possible to sort by many columns at once by shift-clicking the second column after sorting the first column, and the rows will be sorted within the first sorting. it might be useful for sorting by chapter within each book [[User:Firestar233|guess who]] ([[User talk:Firestar233|if you desire conversing]] | [[Special:Contributions/Firestar233|what i have done]]) 06:51, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
::Yes, a book (or youtube) template could default to whatever seems suitable as sort-value without params, but it might be more obvious if explicitly book(/video) zero. Or caught by <nowiki>{{book|nobook=yet}}</nowiki>, or whatever. I'm trying to think what looks least confusing to future editors (those expanding/editing the table, and/or template(s)), but conflicted about what to anticipate.
::I had indeed been looking to see if the -infinity thing could be overriden by a column header defined <code>blank-sort-value="999999"</code> sort of thing. If nothing else, you'd expect there to be a perceived need to sort a range of cells so that explicit negative and explicit positive contents, either by actual cell value or data-sort-value, to sit either side of blank cells... Not ''all'' the time, as sorting to show blanks ''separate'' from filled rows with actual zeroes is also useful, but it seems to useful not to have been suggested as a configurable change.
::The booknumber*A_LARGE_NUMBER offset to the chapter number is probably one of the most useful ways to sort by (primarily) book, then chapter, as it takes just one click. (I believe clicking the secondary and then clicking the primary does the same job as clicking the primary and shift-clicking the primary.) I see so little use to doing a primary sort by chapter (with or without secondary sorting by books, or any other column's detail), to interleave all chapter 1s and so on, that having a "book #" column and a "chapter(/page) #" column (two cells in sequence easily created by the book template, and could also handle the double-blank needed by book=none implementation, if we went that route) would be just complicating matters in an unnecessary manner. (As opposed to how we've complicated matters in a 'necessary' one!)
::Good catch on bringing the BOOK+CHAPTER sort value out of the #switch, BTW, as I was debating how much of the switch-statement I could treat as generic and not need repeating. (My original idea for the 10th Anniversary version of Book 1 to be effectively "Book1.1" made me still want to option of overriding the N*10000 as being 3=>11000 instead of =>30000, but that could ''still'' be implemented by a bit of "(if N=3, 1.1, else N) times 10000" pre-logic, ''or'' by handling <nowiki>{{book|1.10|...}} instead of {{book|3|...}}</nowiki>. Anyway, not important, either way.)
::...all this is why I left Favi (and you/others) get on with the original restructuring effort without jumping in (despite having two of the three books, and having seen all the youtubes). I had plenty of ideas of what to do, but did not want to restructure anything from what seemed to be a happy little project with its own momentum and targets. I finally gave in when I noticed an impasse being hit, with errors and confusion, to which I since ''hope'' I have provided a net reduction in both. Though it's only the first of these about which I'm fairly confident. ;) Anyway, perhaps I'm sliding back to my position on the sidelines, now... [[Special:Contributions/172.70.91.245|172.70.91.245]] 11:20, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
:::These comments are great and extremely detailed, thank you! Thanks to your efforts I was able to retire these templates: book1, book2, book3, book4, and yt, so now we only have the huge {{template|book}} template and {{template|blog}}. I kinda agree with IP that it might not be future-proof, but I don't really see a reason to believe we'll add 2 more parameters to the book-specific columns. And even then, it's not that hard to update the template. But please do let me know if you can think of other issues with the current implementation! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 19:50, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

== tldr ==

hey favifake! i just came back from a 5 day yosemite trip, that’s why i have been awol for that time. could you please really quick give me a tldr of what has been going on in the past couple days? i see that we finished the index, but i’m just wondering if there’s anything else. thanks! '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 02:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
:Welcome back! We now only use the {{template|book}} and {{template|blog}} templates, all the others have been merged into {{template|book}} by the incredible [[User:Firestar233]], the templates are much more solid, they also added all the questions and almost all the what if? 2-exclusive chapters. So now we're only missing the questions from the first book and an explanation for the third's bonus chapter (which you own!). I don't have much time, but you can look at the history of the templates and the main what if chapters page, and also this talk section. There's also a to-do list above the index! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 18:32, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
::ok, great! i'll try to work on the chapter explainations once i find the time '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 21:04, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
:::Amazing! Thanks for your help. If you're interested, I've just added a simple (yet boring) task:
:::*''"Need to add the name(s) of the readers who asked each questions. It's easy! The instructions are in the ''[[What If? chapters#Editors|Editors section]]''!"''
:::If you have time, the names are missing for some book-exclusive articles and the blog articles. --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 10:59, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

== Table for smaller screens ==
Do we think we should list out who asked each question in the table? [[User:Firestar233|guess who]] ([[User talk:Firestar233|if you desire conversing]] | [[Special:Contributions/Firestar233|what i have done]]) 03:09, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

:If so (and I'm not sure it's necessary), please not as an extra column. Already it's squeezing what's there down, something chronic. At least on my current screen, right now.
:*The thumbnail column can't get smaller (unless we use smaller/downscaled thukbnails, of course, but there's a limit to that)
:*The title column (of the first non-hdader is "Relatacistic(Newline)Baseball".
:*The "Reader's(Newline)question" column goes "(quote)What would(Newline)happen if you(Newline)(...etc)".
:*The "Randall's answer" column is positively spacious (no doubt forced to be so by the "Too short!" infoboxes), letting it read "The ball would create plasma and(Newline)reach home plate by about 70(Newline)(...etc)".
:*The three columns for Blog/Book/Vid couldn't be narrower and make sense.
:If the questioner is to be asked, set it after the question (same cell, maybe horizontal rule).
:In fact, what do you think of the following layout modification?
{| class="sortable wikitable"
!Title
!Question / Answer
!Blog
!Books
!YouTube
|-
|'''{{what if|1|Relativistic Baseball}}'''
[[File:Relativistic Baseball.png|100px]]
|''"What would happen if you tried to hit a baseball pitched at 90% the speed of light?"''
<div align="right">Ellen McManis</div>
----
The ball would create plasma and reach home plate by about 70 nanoseconds. The result would be some kind of nuclear explosion, destroying everything about a mile from the field. A ruling of "{{w|hit by pitch}}" could be interpreted in this situation.
|{{blog|1|2012|07|10}}
|{{book|1|2}}
|{{book|5|2024|02|06|3EI08o-IGYk|What if you threw a baseball at nearly light speed?}}
|-
|'''{{what if|2|SAT Guessing}}'''
[[File:SAT Guessing.png|100px]]
|''"What if everyone who took the SAT guessed on every multiple-choice question? How many perfect scores would there be?"''
<div align="right">Rob Balder</div>
----
No one would get a perfect score. The odds of guessing correctly on every question would be less than the odds of every ex-living president at that time and the main cast of [[:Category:Firefly|Firefly]] getting struck by lightning on the same day.
|{{blog|2|2012|07|10|7d early}}
|{{book|1|66}}
|
|}
:Saves trouble of having emphatically unsortable columns, this way, being mere continuations of the cell contents we ''do'' want to sort. Assuming we don't decide we want to sort by "Firstname(s) Lastname" (or "Lastname, Firstname(s)"), as well as by sorting by "What would..." / "What if..." / "How much..." / "Is there..."ness, etc. But that's another step with another answer to it. (e.g. a "By" column with data-sort-value="Lastname, Firstname(s)" defined but ''no visible content''... It'll be as minimally thin as "By" and the sort-glyph allows, only minimally squeezing the other columns. ...if that's more desirous than merely 'data-sort-value'ing the Question(/Name)/Answer field by name (whatever format), and finding little real reason to sort the "How"s from the "What"s from the "Is"s. But that's something that deserves more thought!)
:But what I ''do'' highly suggest (at least add the "Who" after the "Question", same cell, and looks nice with right-align; on top of that, cell-mergering like this, ''probably'' with the horizontal rule markup in the Q&A divide) looks good to me.
:"Relativistic Baseball"(noNewline!) and "(quote)What would happen if you tried to hit a   (Newline, etc...)" is how the example table pans out in Preview, which is an improvement for readability.
:I won't pre-emptimptively assume you're ok with this plan, but (if it seems the idea is liked/not disliked), when I have the time to do it I could blitz this (or any other consensus change of similar radicality, that gets proposed instead) later on (at least 12 hours from now, maybe a full day...). I'll do what I can to fill (or visibly format, if already there) such authors as I'm not left totally stumped about for whatever nazcent reason. Sound good to y'all? ;) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.190|141.101.98.190]] 05:00, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks for your suggestions! These are my thoughts:
Do we think we should list out who asked each question in the table?
::Yes! I thought about doing this after you commented each reader after the question, but didn't have the time. The ay you went about adding them makes it very easy to create a "find-and-replace" to do it for all cells at once.This is how I'd do it:
:: <nowiki>''"Question?"''</nowiki>
:: <nowiki><div align="right">—Rob Balder</div></nowiki>

In fact, what do you think of the following layout modification?
[...] cell-mergering like this, ''probably'' with the horizontal rule markup in the Q&A divide) looks good to me.
::I don't really like it and I don't think it's needed, mainly because it only looks good on a small screen. Meanwhile, on a normal-sized desk monitor, it makes the table '''almost twice as tall''' on my end. I don't think we should optimise for smaller screens and disregard other users with a larger screen real estate. If you find any other way to improve the table on both screen sizes, please do let us know!
(e.g. a "By" column with data-sort-value="Lastname, Firstname(s)" defined but ''no visible content''... It'll be as minimally thin as "By" and the sort-glyph allows, only minimally squeezing the other columns.
::I don't really like this idea, seems confusing for the end user (why is there an empty column?), doesn't add so much value, and needs to be maintained. If someone wants to sort by reader alphabetically, they'll likely find a way to isolate the '''<code><nowiki><div align="right">—Rob Balder</div></nowiki></code>''' part.
But what I ''do'' highly suggest (at least add the "Who" after the "Question", same cell, and looks nice with right-align [...]
::Love that! See above.
::--[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 09:01, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

::I formatted them! All the ones that were added as comments in the table are now visible. I also added this to-do, mainly for blog posts:
::*Need to add the name(s) of the readers who asked each questions. It's easy! The instructions are in the ''[[What If? chapters#Editors|Editors section]]''!
::--[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 10:57, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
:::Regarding "...on a normal-sized desk monitor, it makes the table '''almost twice as tall''' on my end." my display (non-desktop) has ultra-wide aspect ratio (when landscape; I rarely use portrait for browsing because then web-pages are scaled to unreadable levels).
:::With side-by-side Q and A columns, the "Too small" warning box dictates the minimum width of the Answer column, making the Question column even more narrow (when you take the minimum width of the thumbnail out of the horizontal space, then the title and the three "occurance" columns fight for what remains) than it might otherwise need to be. (If/when we remove ''all'' these hints to edit longer answer-'summaries', the table will doubtless realign its contents to a more equitable share of width between columns.)
:::Most often, this still results in (non-short) "Answer" columns being longer than they need to be, and forcing the whole row to be vertically wasteful. An opposite case (such as replicated below) does it with the Question having to have excessive linefeeds, being less readable (needs scrolling to read it all) and leaving a vast desert of blankness in the cell to its immediate right.
:::Isolating just the Q and A columns (to remove other confounding factors, for most displays except maybe phones-in-portrait - which is already an abominable mode and I find most websites look ''far'' more unreadable in ultra-tall-portrait orientation, so I generally avoid doing that on my tablet) and manually adding the line-breaks I see, you get:
{| class="sortable wikitable"
|"When my wife and I started dating she invited me over for dinner at one time. Her kitchen had something called Bauhaus chairs, which are full of holes, approx 5-6 millimeters in diameter in both back and seat. During this lovely dinner I was forced to liberate a small portion of wind and was relieved that I managed to do so very discretely. Only to find that the chair I sat on converted the successful silence into a perfect, and loud, flute note. We were both (luckily) amazed and surprised and I have often wondered what the odds are for something like that happening. We kept the chairs for five years but despite laborious attempts it couldn't be reproduced."
|This... isn’t actually a question, but thank you for sharing!
|}
:::Integrating the row into the above-suggested format of table, we get (showing just that single combined Q+A cell, minus any "by"-line), the following:
{| class="sortable wikitable"
|"When my wife and I started dating she invited me over for dinner at one time. Her kitchen had something called Bauhaus chairs, which are full of holes, approx 5-6 millimeters in diameter in both back and seat. During this lovely dinner I was forced to liberate a small portion of wind and was relieved that I managed to do so very discretely. Only to find that the chair I sat on converted the successful silence into a perfect, and loud, flute note. We were both (luckily) amazed and surprised and I have often wondered what the odds are for something like that happening. We kept the chairs for five years but despite laborious attempts it couldn't be reproduced."
----
This... isn’t actually a question, but thank you for sharing!
|}
:::Yes, the non-Q&A cells (which I've left out, just there) are still comparatively empty (especially as "Relativistic Baseball" isn't forced into two lines, and even the final three columns don't need quite as many linefeeds between them ...you could probably narrow them further by forcing some linebreaks back into them, giving even more width to Q+A column), but they're actually often ''less'' empty because they aren't as artifically tall as a function of =max(height(question),height(answer)), instead being =height(wider(question+answer)). The conversion to not force a short question to inhabit a desolately empty cell as long as narrowly squashed answer, ''and'' a short answer to be as long as an even more narrowly squashed question, seems to be more wasteful of space than to give combined Q&A far more width and let it be ''exactly'' as long as it needs to be for both to fill it (being the crux of the row, the rest being 'annotations' to the paragraphed question/answer interplay).
:::Though I'm not next to my own desktop display, right now, I can tell you that the space-wasting I'm showing is notable (though not quite so egregious) there, too, and I had already thought to try out (at least for a Preview) a Q+A column.
:::I wasn't, at that time, even thinking of thumbnail+title columns merging (which would help even more), but I'm sorely tempted now. Whether or not Q+A merging is accepted by the wider set of editors. Merging title+thumbnail ''could'' trivially let the Q-column expand maybe to double its current width, depending upon the other dynamics involved in apportioning rendered width and height. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.9|172.70.90.9]] 13:00, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

:::Ok, for reference: The desktop machine has the following line-feeds for the above example, as ''currently'' shown in the Thumbnail|Title|Question|Answer|... format:
{| class="sortable wikitable"
|"When my wife and I started dating she invited me over for dinner at one time. Her kitchen had something called Bauhaus chairs, which are full of holes, approx 5-6 millimeters in diameter in both back and seat. During this lovely dinner I was forced to liberate a small portion of wind and was relieved that I managed to do so very discretely. Only to find that the chair I sat on converted the successful silence into a perfect, and loud, flute note. We were both (luckily) amazed and surprised and I have often wondered what the odds are for something like that happening. We kept the chairs for five years but despite laborious attempts it couldn't be reproduced."
|This... isn’t actually a question, but thank you for sharing!(Single line!)
|}
:::Testing the above-suggested format of table, we get:
{| class="sortable wikitable"
|"When my wife and I started dating she invited me over for dinner at one time. Her kitchen had something called Bauhaus chairs, which are full of holes, approx 5-6 millimeters in diameter in both back and seat. During this lovely dinner I was forced to liberate a small portion of wind and was relieved that I managed to do so very discretely. Only to find that the chair I sat on converted the successful silence into a perfect, and loud, flute note. We were both (luckily) amazed and surprised and I have often wondered what the odds are for something like that happening. We kept the chairs for five years but despite laborious attempts it couldn't be reproduced."
----
This... isn’t actually a question, but thank you for sharing!
|}
:::Again, produces shorter (and more readable?) rows. In this particularly extreme example, at least. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.49|162.158.74.49]] 14:25, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
::::Thanks for your answer, these are my thoughts:
the "Too small" warning box dictates the minimum width of the Answer column, making the Question column even more narrow [...] than it might otherwise need to be
::::*I hadn't thought of that, but still: if the issue is mainly caused by these notices, it's very easy to replace them with something else that doesn't force the column to be too wide.
I generally avoid doing that on my tablet
::::*Oh, you're still the same IP as before! Hey there! My point ''wasn't'' that your idea wouldn't benefit small-sized screens like tablets (because it does, as you proved!), but that we should mainly focus on desktop users, which is how most readers that aren't on their phones will use the index. I don't like the idea of making the experience worse for everyone except tablet users (and phone users, but i can't imagine someone browsing such a huge index on their phones, so i don't think we should consider them). I'd love it you could improve the experience for both types of devices!
"When my wife and I started dating she invited me over for dinner at one time. Her kitchen
::::*I think that's a bad example because the question is 4x the normal question length and there is no answer. I don't think we'd want to optimise the index so that that specific article looks better but most other articles don't.
::::*I think the perfect example of how it will one day look is article 2, with the question being slightly shorter than the answer, and that difference being balanced by the name of the reader who asked the question:
{| class="sortable wikitable"
!class="unsortable"|Thumbnail
!Title
!Reader's question
!class="unsortable"|Randall's answer
!Blog
!Books
!YouTube
|-
|[[File:SAT Guessing.png|100px]]
|'''{{what if|2|SAT Guessing}}'''
|''"What if everyone who took the SAT guessed on every multiple-choice question? How many perfect scores would there be?"''
<div align="right">—This is a name</div>
|No one would get a perfect score. The odds of guessing correctly on every question would be less than the odds of every ex-living president at that time and the main cast of [[:Category:Firefly|Firefly]] getting struck by lightning on the same day.
|{{blog|2|2012|07|10|7d early}}
|{{book|1|66}}
|{{book|16|2024|09|24|0EytSWiKrFg|What if example?}}
|}
::::*This specific example, which is how most articles do/will look hopefully, is '''~45% shorter''' than [[#Question askers|your example]] and thus wastes much less space on my screen size.
the final three columns don't need quite as many linefeeds between them ...you could probably narrow them further by forcing some linebreaks back into them [...]
::::*If they need linebreaks, doesn't that mean that their column would be the most narrow one? I thought mediawiki balanced the table pretty well.
thumbnail+title columns merging (which would help even more), but I'm sorely tempted now
::::*But I think this idea has the same problem, looking too tall on desktops and beautiful on a tablet. I wouldn't want to ruin the UX of desktop users to favour tablet users, but i'd love a way to improve both!
::::*Also, I'd like to one day make the thumbnail bigger, because currently it's too small in my opinion. But if i increased its size right now, it would force every row to be even taller, which would waste space on desktop (and, of course, save space on small screens, or at least not make that big of a difference). --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 17:04, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
::::Is there a "mobile" version/url for this site? because there might be a way to make the table try to display a different layout if it's on the mobile url/version or if the screen is too small, but that would require putting complicated expressions in every row and in the header columns. [[User:Firestar233|guess who]] ([[User talk:Firestar233|if you desire conversing]] | [[Special:Contributions/Firestar233|what i have done]]) 20:53, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
:::::Yeah I had thought of doing a similar thing, maybe have two pages with different coding and use complex transclusions to keep the content the same? But I wouldn’t even know where to begin with that. But you're the wiki-editing wizard here. --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 17:50, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

== adding what if? 10th ann ==

as most of you know, the what if? 10th anniversary edition is basically an updated version of what if?, compete with red annotations and a bonus chapter that i need to get around to explaining. since it has all the original what if? chapters, should we add a red 10th anniversary box under each green what if? box? '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 16:12, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

:Yeah I realized it was just small annotations after i created the template and now I've changed the 10th ann. one to say ''Featured '''exclusively''' on the 3rd ed. etc.'' Not sure if that's enough, could also be much longer since it's only used on 1 row, but we definitely shouldn't add the template to every other article, (would break the style= html tag). Someone should still mention that articles on the first book are all available on the 3rd (and add more info) on both '''[[what if? (blog)]]''' and '''[[What If? 10th Anniversary Edition]]'''.
:Don't worry too much about explaining it, it can just be a couple of sentences. People can watch the video if they want details. Thanks for your work!{{unsigned|FaviFake|09:57, 3 February 2025 (UTC)}} 

:The fact that the 10th Anniversary ed ("book3", in original nomenclature) was basically a bonus-chapter version of the original ("book1"), was behind my suggestion that book|3 should sort-value itself as between book|1 articles and the completely new book|2, but there are severl ways of doing it (including maybe using something akin to {{w|Template:Diagonal split header}} for book|1 (assumed to also be book|3) rendering. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.38.96|162.158.38.96]] 21:08, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

::That's interesting, I didn't know that existed! I wonder if there's a less repetitive and/or space-efficient way of expressing the same message ("this is on both"), but idk. (look, I remembered to sign this time!) --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 17:43, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

::another question: should i be updating the explanations to be accurate as of 2024? many of the red annotations contain corrections or updates. '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 16:08, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

That's interesting! I like the idea of adding them, but I can't seem to find a nice way to add them:
*We could add them to the existing explanation, but that would be weird because half of the blog articles, which are public on the site, don't have these additions.
*We could add them to the book column, but it'd likely get too big, and we would need to figure out a way to make the template do that.
*We could create a duplicate row of every red-annotated article, even if they're on the blog, but that would be confusing and might clutter the index.
*We could create a new column, but we already have too many.
*Also, we'd need to figure out how to add them. Do we want to make the text red like in the book? Should we use a new/old template for that?
--[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 17:43, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

== By what measure is anything "too short". ==

I am very close to just removing all the <code><nowiki>{{notice|Too short}}</nowiki></code> additions, on the basis that this seems to be a purely subjective measure. The only reason I haven't is because they'll probably just be added back in again (with no more reasoning than before). But, if anyone wants more information, everyone already knows where they can find the ''full'' text (or narrated video) that gives it, while a summary is a summary. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.49|172.70.85.49]] 20:28, 19 March 2025 (UTC)
:The reason I add them is because I'd like people browsing the index to be able to glance at a question and read its summary. I try to check the original article to see if there are any important things we missed and point them out. But if, after reading through an article, you find that our summary is clear and '''fully answers''' the question, you can remove it. I started adding these because some early summaries were way too short, just 5-10 words, and mostly didn't answer the question. For example, if an answer is "We would all die", that doesn't answer the question, but "The radiation from the nuclear bomb would be so pervasive that we would all die in 2 years" does.

:Of course people can just read all ~250 articles, but if someone just wants the answer quickly, we offer that. Please feel free to remove them from answers that are already complete, but not all of them.--[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 16:48, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

::Reviewing the current first five "Too short" complaints, IMO you cannot get much more fully answered without expanding the "summary" to basically going through the article's in-depth explanation and copying/paraphrasing it. Which seems to me to miss the point.
::Parallel requests for rewording/better phrasing I can understand (if I thought that any change I made in that direction was going to stand when it got "made longer", I might even try to help out in that direction), but I'm still none the wiser why they are too short.
::Answering a question of "How long/heavy/bright/fast is <foo>?" shouldn't need more than a simple "it is <measurement>, given <caveat>", in most cases. Maybe a couple of those if there's different caveats, or add why it would end the world if you even ''had'' such a <foo>. "Could I/we/humanity <bar>?" probably doesn't need much more than "[Yes/No], but <unexpected thing...>" And I'm not sure if it's still there, because I'm not going to recheck it all, but at one point I noted at least one short-question/short-answer that had a longer 'summary' than the answer given.
::I like words. I need to expend effort to not use more of them, myself, and am quite pleased if I ''can'' satisfactorily say what I'm trying to say in a succint manner. (i.e. not like this...) But I'm still none the wiser what (lower) thresholds there are in this situation. I'm going to consider if I can help, here, but not right this moment. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.241.122|172.71.241.122]] 20:29, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Oooh you're the same IP! I didn't recognise you.
Reviewing the current first five "Too short" complaints, IMO you cannot get much more fully answered without expanding the "summary" to basically going through the article's in-depth explanation and copying/paraphrasing it. Which seems to me to miss the point.
:::Sounds good. If the explanation is satisfactory and mentions everything except things like the methodology used and minor "sub-answers", feel free to remove the notices!

"How long/heavy/bright/fast is <foo>?" shouldn't need more than a simple "it is <measurement>, given <caveat>", in most cases. Maybe a couple of those if there's different caveats, or add why it would end the world if you even had such a <foo>.
:::Agreed!

"Could I/we/humanity <bar>?" probably doesn't need much more than "[Yes/No], but <unexpected thing...>"
:::Agree, but usually the entire article revolves around that unexpected thing, so i think we should summarise that too. Agin, feel free to remove the ones you're sure can't be made any longer in a useful way At the start, I added a lot and didn't have time to go read the article for each one! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 15:56, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

== Alternate universe What-Ifs ==

Should we make the explanation for Alternate universe What-Ifs a separate page? Explaining every section in this article might be too long, and if the other explanations are anything to go by, an explanation that fits would be considered too short. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.174.147|172.68.174.147]] 06:09, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
:I think we should definitely explain it, but maybe it's better if we keep it in the table? Why'd you want to split into another page?
:Also, the short-answer articles aren't too short. If you look at [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/What_If%3F_chapters#:~:text=Short Answer Section II Short%20Answer%20Section%20II], for example, it explanations are very short, and rightfully so. --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 15:49, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

== What about Good Question? ==

There does appear to be a *fourth* "What If?" thing Randall has done that is seemingly only documented at [[New York Times: Good Question]]; the New York Times's [https://www.nytimes.com/column/good-question-randall-munroe-xkcd Good Question], which does appear to maybe have some chapter reposts (i.e. Cosmic Road Trip/"How Long Is the Drive to the Edge of the Universe?"). My question is, is this worth documenting on this page in specific? [[User:Adrmcr|Adrmcr]] ([[User talk:Adrmcr|talk]]) 18:36, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

:Oh, right, I had forgotten about that page! I like the idea of doing something with it, it's currently almost impossible to find. To give it more visibility, I think we could move its contents here. I'm not sure if we should add them to the existing table or put them in a new section, maybe at the bottom. I could see something like this working:

{| class="sortable wikitable"
! rowspan="2" scope="col" class="unsortable" | Thumbnail
! rowspan="2" scope="col" data-sort-type=text| Title
! rowspan="2" scope="col" data-sort-type=text| question
! rowspan="2" scope="col" class="unsortable" | Randall's answer
! colspan="3"| Article available in... <noinclude></noinclude> ''(click to sort)'' <noinclude></noinclude>
|-
! scope="col" data-sort-type=number | Blog
! scope="col" data-sort-type=number | Books
! scope="col" data-sort-type=number | YouTube
|-
| rowspan="7" |
| rowspan="7" |'''Good Question'''
|[https://www.nytimes.com/column/good-question-randall-munroe-xkcd ''"How Long Is the Drive to the Edge of the Universe?"'']
<div align="right">—Randall Munroe</div>
|Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Cras sagittis lacus sit amet porta vulputate.
|1st "[https://www.nytimes.com/column/good-question-randall-munroe-xkcd Good Question]" NYT article, on 2012‑07‑10
|
|
|-
|[https://www.nytimes.com/column/good-question-randall-munroe-xkcd ''"Shark or Orca: Which Should You Fear More?"'']
<div align="right">—Randall Munroe</div>
|rutrum eros id, tincidunt neque. Integer hendrerit magna ac nibh fringilla,
|2nd "[https://www.nytimes.com/column/good-question-randall-munroe-xkcd Good Question]" NYT article, on 2012‑07‑10
|
|
|-
|[https://www.nytimes.com/column/good-question-randall-munroe-xkcd ''" How Many Languages Could a Child Speak?"'']
<div align="right">—Randall Munroe</div>
|non venenatis lacus hendrerit. Pellentesque ullamcorper dolor eget nunc gravida, nec euismod risus efficitur.
|3rd "[https://www.nytimes.com/column/good-question-randall-munroe-xkcd Good Question]" NYT article, on 2012‑07‑10
|
|
|}

:The old page could become a redirect to the new section/NYT table. --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 08:49, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone? --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 16:56, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

== Striking a match on Titan - additional ==

Depends on how you read it, but try to strike a safety match ''on'' Titan probably would do nothing at all (just like if you tried to strike it on a bit of Earth rock, here on the surface of Earth), as it needs the chemicals in the striking-strip to (in small amounts) combine with the oxidiser in the match-head coating to spark up and ''then'' prompt the relatively slower-burning process that leads to the atmosphere-fed burning of the 'stick'.

This means that striker+match reaction will also work in most situations (including underwater and in vacuum), though of course may then fail to get significant amount of post-striking ignition to continue. As non-safety/strike-anywhere ones will, given the friction (hmmm... would you get good friction off of the ice-boulders of Titan?).

But coating your matchheads with wax (or manufactured with a suitable coating) is advisable for 'survival kit' matches, to prevent infusion of water to 'dampen the squib'. Would be interesting to know to what degree the anoxic atmosphere of Titan might seep in and similarly suppress the various types of ready-to-react compounds, before even the lack of free oxygen ends the intended flare-up. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.26.37|172.71.26.37]] 10:19, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

:Uhh, what article are you talking about? This info could be useful to add in the index! --[[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 15:06, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
::Easily searchable (or made visible as per my recent change), it's not the only "match" or "Titan" reference, but there aren't so many of either that you need to check much further than the first appearance of either, probably.
::But, as you ask, it's in the Book 2 "Short Answers #3" collection (the penultimate one of that grouping). And, now that I've reached home, I can also tell you that it's pp.141-142 in the UK hardback edition (whether or not that's identical/near to your own copy's appearance of it).
::However, no ''more'' info needs to be added, IMO. I changed the prior edit (not sure who/which IP did it, without checking, but their edit popped it up on my own radar as worthy of minor refinement) to just say that it's oxidiser, not just "oxygen" (there's oxygen in the "stick" and any other "head"-coatings applied, but basically incidental to the initial ignition when it's the oxidiser component that primarily contributes to that). And, to my mild and gratifying surprise, now find that this is pretty much exactly what the Short Answer says (except in 'Merkin form of "oxidizer" - so now, I think to myself, did I write my edit in Leftpondian (as I should, just because Noah Webster just wanted to be a Lexigographical Edgelord), or Rightpondian (as is my default habit, because that's how I was educated)... need to check that!), in the form of a summary which ''our'' summary pretty much matches[[[559: No Pun Intended|''NPI!'']]] in all useful ways.
::I added the stuff here, about the Safety Match detail, as a bonus bit of info for anyone who cares to scan down here to know this additional thing that I happen to know (but not necessarily explain well?)... Randall does not go that far into the details in his book-answer (he does divert into a footnote about KClO3 being used in airliner oxygen masks, but that's beyond the scope of adding here, and he totally avoids the safety/strike-anywhere distinctions). Adding the above to the Explanation Table would be overkill, and misrepresent Randall's original format to no real benefit (except maybe some curious pyromaniacs, on Earth or elsewhere) [[Special:Contributions/172.69.195.179|172.69.195.179]] 16:58, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

Talk:3058: Tall Structures

2025-03-04T07:06:36Z

172.70.163.142: Reply, plus administrative editing, including to reduce visual confusion over comment heritage (in editor *and* when rendered). ~~~~

This is not actually possible, since a knit garment is not made from one long thread of yarn, but many interwoven threads.
This is actually wrong; knitting is a technique for entangling a single yarn with itself in such a way that it forms a fabric. (It's not to be confused with ''weaving'', which does indeed use many, shorter threads.) In practice, a large, complex item like a sweater is made from multiple pieces sewn together, but it would have something like a single digit number of separate yarns.
 Incidentally, a sweater contains on the order of a kilometer of yarn, which is also about the minimum safe distance for skydiving, so this scenario passes the Fermi estimate sniff test. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.100|162.158.159.100]] 00:55, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

:Wouldn't the yarn snap at some point from acceleration due to gravity and the tightness of the weave pattern? [[User:TomtheBuilder|TomtheBuilder]] ([[User talk:TomtheBuilder|talk]]) 01:56, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

:Usually, the plane you are skydiving from won't remain circling above you ... -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 03:22, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

This is kinda random, but does this wiki have a page for xkcd.com/no and xkcd.com/yes?? I didn't see any and I think they at least deserve a page {{unsigned ip|172.69.23.94|04:32, 4 March 2025}}
:Huh that's cool, didn't know those pages existed. Do you know anything about why they exist? (also please sign your posts with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) [[User:TheTrainsKid|TheTrainsKid]] ([[User talk:TheTrainsKid|talk]]) 05:50, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Nice to see the UK officially represented, there, but it's not even the {{w|Emley Moor transmitting station|tallest tower in the UK}} (and that's not counting the seven or eight latticework masts that range from merely taller than The Shard to even taller than EMTS). I suspect similar absences feature in the rest of the list, which I note yet features other freestanding towers-but-not-buildings (plus the 'joker' neither-tower-nor-building that is the aerostat). [[Special:Contributions/172.70.163.142|172.70.163.142]] 07:06, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Talk:3052: Archive Request

2025-02-18T11:58:20Z

172.70.163.142:

The "everyone else is trapped outside" is reminiscent of ''so long and thanks for all the fish'' (i think that's the right book), with the house with the inverted walls. The person living inside the house sees everyone else as trapped within the house.[[User:Firestar233|guess who]] ([[User talk:Firestar233|if you desire conversing]] | [[Special:Contributions/Firestar233|what i have done]]) 07:34, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

I'm sure I'm not the only person to still ''have'' a handy XP machine, as well as a '98 one (SE is ok, I assume?) that I could boot up. As well as a 2K one that's already ''actually running'', as I type, plus I could get my original '95 running again (might need new CMOS battery), with ''possibly'' some usable Win 3.1/3.11 installation floppies. - I'm a bit less capable of running Vista (urgh!), but I know exactly where I can borrow such a laptop (still in use). I'd be all out of luck with 8/8.1 and 10, as throughout those eras I skipped them and still stuck with the better designed XP, until the very latest (Win11) machine was forced upon me (meh...), with all its various foibles. (Although I may be able to cover most of the bases via various linux boxen, no doubt, with the right WINE/equivalent setups.) [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.116|172.70.85.116]] 08:54, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

"However, since these records are having to be scanned from paper in the first place, the rest seems to simply be inserting extra complication unnecessarily." These things actually happen, though, because not only the technical standard of the documents might be dated, but also the SOPs the people at the archives still have to follow - or even the actual persons who work there.
Here in Germany, people were pretty baffled when it became known, during the COVID pandemic, that local public health offices still sent their epidemiological data to the federal agency in Berlin BY FAX. Health officials, however, were not ready to change this practice and cited a whole bunch of reasons why this was supposedly the better option. --[[Special:Contributions/172.70.230.237|172.70.230.237]] 10:15, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
:It also caused a fuss (mostly with people who were ''looking'' for a fuss to cause, of course) that the NHS (the UK's health service) was still using fax communications, amid promises that they ''were'' to be phased out. Can't quite remember if this was before or after (though probably before) the first massive incident where NHS computers (which the original faxes weren't reliant upon) suffered disruption.
:And, since then, there have been both ransomware problems and the whole Crowdstrike issue happening, when the ability to sign certain authorisation forms and fax it was probably (if still available as an option) very useful in leiu of the (technically more robust and secure... ''usually'') electronically-signed successor process.
:Though I've never worked directly in the health sector (I was in a sort-of-aligned area, dealing with the validation and authorisation of products from the pharmaceutical quarter), my experience with systems validation and change-control really wants there to always be a reasonable reliable fallback/failback mechanism should things happen. There are a number of things it might be impossible to recover from (the effects of widespread war or natural disaster), and some that will be difficult (localised problems requiring moving to a brand new building, with enough people/material/resources to keep going whilst any irretrievable loss is worked around), but keeping open a backup channel of moving information around (slips of paper, within a building, maybe faxes can do a better job than couriers for longer journeys and/or more immediate response) would be very useful.
:Of course, ''only'' using the fax system is problematic, given the extra functionality and (when done correctly!) security of a computerised system, but SOPs/P&Ps need to be properly reviewed (and enough thought put into them that even the stick-in-the-muds can't complain about "if it aint broke, don't fix it" — an attitude I wholly sympathise with, as I've seen many, ''many'' things being "fixed" or "improved" into an unworkable state, usually dumping the problem on someone other than the one who tried to modernise whatever it was).
:For the comic, disregarding the title text's clear ''intentional'' nod to nostalgic and archaic mechanisms, it looks quite like a rarely accessed historic archive whose maintainers (those who know where to look in the extensive and dusty back-catalogue) haven't really been kept in the loop or been able to justify any decent departmentsl budget beyond that needed to keep everything safe in its original form. At best, the new guy (only been there a decade, still "the new guy", if he's not been moved elsewhere/onwards, as a reward) had realised that migration to Vista is causing a problem, so made a specific note of it on the 'new' web front-end to the LotusNotes-based request and support system. (Ironically, probably the most future-resiliant part of the whole corporate intranet, give or take the possible browser complaint about being unable to connect as https with a current certificate.)
:But I'm sure there's also different interpretations from those I most directly relate to. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.97|172.71.178.97]] 11:55, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

Firing up my suspicious node. (c.f. Commander Vimes) Another possibility is that providing these obstacles is a way of eliminating trivial requests, thus reducing the archivists workload and preventing the researchers getting bloated on low quality information. 😉 [[User:RIIW - Ponder it|RIIW - Ponder it]] ([[User talk:RIIW - Ponder it|talk]]) 11:30, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

3045: AlphaMove

2025-02-04T09:13:06Z

172.70.163.142: /* Explanation */

{{comic
| number = 3045
| date = January 31, 2025
| title = AlphaMove
| image = alphamove_2x.png
| imagesize = 500x526px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = It struggles a little with complex positions, like when there are an even number of moves and it has to round down, but when run against itself it's capable of finding some novelties. At one point I saw six knights on the board at once; Stockfish rarely exceeds four.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by THE SEVENTH KNIGHT, WAITING IN ANTICIPATION FOR THE BETA RELEASE. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}
This comic shows a new {{w|chess engine}}, presumably created by [[Randall]], which takes a list of all legal moves (in {{w|Algebraic notation (chess)|algebraic notation}}) in alphabetical order and chooses the median.

A playable implementation of this game can be found here: [https://enn-nafnlaus.github.io/AlphaMove/alphamove.html AlphaMove].

Algebraic notation begins with a symbol for which piece is being moved, which is always the first letter of the piece name, with the exception of knights (N) and pawns (nothing). This is then followed by the square that the piece is being moved to. For example, 'Rc4' would indicate a move that moved a rook to c4. Other symbols include a lowercase x before the destination, indicating that the move is a capture; a plus sign (+) after the destination, indicating that the move places the opposing king in check; and a hash sign (#) after the destination, indicating that the move places the opposing king in checkmate, thus winning the game. There are also O-O and O-O-O notations, which indicate that a player is castling kingside or queenside, respectively.

In practice, this algorithm runs into a few issues. As seen in the comic, the algorithm rarely moves bishops and rooks due to their relative lack of moves in the early game, and their tendency to inhabit the edges of any list when they do have sortable moves. Among basic moves, only pawns destined to move in the first two files of a board can ever sort higher than bishops, and nothing other than another rook can be closer to the far end than a rook. The algorithm favors knight and king moves, with entries starting with the most alphabetically middling "K" and "N" list entries, and (to a lesser extent) pawns destined to move up the right side of the board, the "h"-file pawn generally having the greatest statistical chance. Castling moves would also occur near the middle of the list, as they are denoted with letter 'O' characters as O-O or O-O-O. The shortcomings of AlphaMove are instantly apparent from looking at the game board presented in the comic; roughly ten moves into the game, White has lost three pawns, captured nothing, and advanced their king into the open rather than developing any pieces, while Black (presumably being played by a 'stronger' conventional chess engine) has taken control of the center with a knight and two pawns, developed a bishop, and advanced their queen to f2.

The ''actual'' middle of the list might vary away from the usual alphabetic median if the moves (and the pieces removed by the opponent) are heavily biased to a particular subset of player-pieces. It is conceivable that an opponent could identify the AlphaMove strategy as being used, and then use their foreknowledge of the algorithm's 'developing game' to strategically make (normally non-optimal) moves designed explicitly to force the algorithm down their own choice of path, such as targeting undefended rooks and queens (either capturing them with impunity, or just strategically restricting their movements by moving into contact with them in such a way as to normally be a suicidal sacrifice), in order to make certain other pieces take their own moves. Although given the established failings of uncritically sticking to the algorithmic plan, it is probably ''vastly'' more effort to precisely engineer a given game-state than to merely play properly and respond with half-decent responses to the overwhelmingly sub-optimal series of moves. For example, setting Stockfish (Black) against AlphaMove (White) results in the following fifteen-move victory for black:
# f3 e5
# e4 Bc5
# d4 Bxd4
# f4 d5
# g4 Qh4+
# Ke2 Qf2+
# Kd3 dxe4+
# Kxe4 Nf6+
# Kd3 e4+
# Kc4 Be6+
# Kb5 a6+
# Ka5 Bc3+
# Ka4 b5+
# Ka3 Qc5+
# b4 Qxb4#
On the other hand, a person playing black who knew that white was using AlphaMove could win in six moves (possibly fewer):
# f3 e5
# e4 Qh4+
# Ke2 b6
# g3 Ba6+
# Ke1 Qh3
# c3 Qxf1#
However, chess tournaments do not award more points for quicker victories, and playing like this would be risky because if White initially uses AlphaMove and Black goes for the six-move checkmate, White could capture Black's undefended queen on move five, revealing the AlphaMove emulation to just be a ruse to get Black to expose a queen. White would then be in a winning position after 5. Bxh3 or 5. Nxh3 and could play smartly for the rest of the game and would likely win, so opting for the fifteen-move mate would likely be safer. Indeed, playing Stockfish against itself after 5. Nxh3 yields the following 41-move win for white:
# f3 e5
# e4 Qh4+
# Ke2 b6
# g3 Ba6+
# Ke1 Qh3
# Nxh3 c5
# f4 Bb7
# Nc3 Nc6
# d3 Be7
# Nb5 Rd8
# Nc7+ Kf8
# Bg2 d6
# Kf2 Nf6
# Rf1 exf4
# Nxf4 Rc8
# Ncd5 Ne5
# Nxf6 Bxf6
# Kg1 h6
# c3 Rd8
# d4 cxd4
# cxd4 Nd7
# Be3 Kg8
# h4 Kh7
# Nh5 Rhg8
# Qf3 Ba6
# Rfc1 Kh8
# Bh3 Bd3
# Bxd7 Bxh4
# Qxf7 Bxe4
# gxh4 Rdf8
# Qe7 Bg6
# Rc7 Rf7
# Nf4 Rxe7
# Nxg6+ Kh7
# Nxe7 Rf8
# Rf1 Rb8
# Rf7 Kh8
# Be6 Kh7
# Bf5+ Kh8
# Ng6+ Kh7
# Rxg7#
(While white technically does let black capture white's undefended queen on move 34, this is not the same as what black did on move 5 because after 34. … Rxe7, the rook doing the capturing has moved into a position where 35. Nxg6+ forks it and black's king while capturing a bishop. This allows white to recoup {{w|Chess_piece_relative_value|eight points}} in the following two moves, which represents a greater proportion of black's remaining firepower than the nine points that white just lost. Indeed, with black having only one piece (besides the king) left to help with defense, white can force checkmate in six moves. Thus, the AlphaMove ruse, where white pretends to use AlphaMove in order to trick black into hanging the black queen, can be advantageous for white if black falls for it. However, even after 1. f3 e5 2. e4, white has a weakened kingside early in the game and has not been the most productive at allowing for future development, so black should focus on development (e.g., 2. … Nc6 or 2. … Bc5) and use the advantage that black already has instead of risking falling into a trap. (Of course, the AlphaMove ruse would only have any chance of working if the opponent reads xkcd, which is another reason to not try it.)

Even if AlphaMove ever found one or more of its potential moves to be one that happens to result in checkmate, it has no reason to do anything other than choose its "mid-list move", as described, and the chances are high that such a mate would never be invoked. Along those lines, Qa4+ is a relatively safe move to create a short-term check, to put immediate pressure upon the Black king, and potentially a longer term inconvenience with 'only' a predictable response preventing it from developing into a mate. But it is not in the right list position to attempt, never mind whether it would then be correctly followed up.

This engine may be named for and inspired by the real chess engine {{w|AlphaZero}}, or {{w|AlphaGo}} which plays a different game but has a more similar name. Another real name, mentioned in the title text, is {{w|Stockfish (chess)|Stockfish}}, a widely used (and powerful) chess engine.

On this board, Black can win the game instantly with ...Bb4{{w|Checkmate|#}}. Rather than do anything to defend against this, White just moves an unrelated piece, almost certainly losing immediately afterward. Randall has also chosen a setup where the king is placed in a position where it cannot make any legal moves, thus removing it from the list of pieces that can perform any moves. Almost certainly this was a choice, both to make the list without king moves and also to make it pretty easy to see how one more move would be checkmate.

The title of the comic is a play on words. As the name of the chess engine, it refers to the strategy of choosing moves based on alphabetical ordering, while in popular usage, an "alpha move" is an action that would assert dominance over someone else. This makes it an ironic name for the chess engine; rather than asserting dominance, it loses quickly.

The title text mentions games with "six knights", which implies that two pawns have been promoted to knights. Pawns can promote to bishop, knight, queen or rook, so the middle of this list is tied between knight and queen. It is rare that a pawn is promoted to a knight; in most situations a queen would be preferred. The exceptions (perhaps where promoting to queen would cause either an immediate stalemate from what was a winnable position, or let the king survive on a square that's a knight's move away from the newly-promoted queen) are common in contrived chess puzzles but rare in actual gameplay. Promotion to rook or bishop would be even rarer, as these pieces have fewer move possibilities than a queen without the alternative moves of the knight. It would probably be due to a 'forced' promotion, in lieu of moving a more vital piece currently perfectly positioned for the endgame, and the player concerned should be perfectly aware of they must or must not promote to, ahead of time. However, when AlphaMove plays itself, the pawns tend to preferentially move up (and down) the right-hand side of the board, and may meet each other in double-files, or more, ''possibly'' with the opportunity to cross over to capture an opponent. If the alphabetical balance of moves becomes such that multiple right-hand files of pawns are dodging past each other, it is not unrealistic that multiple pawns would reach the respective back ranks and 'choose' to promote to knights.

Chess is a [[:Category:Chess|recurring theme]] on xkcd, with another recent example being [[3036: Chess Zoo]].

==Transcript==
:[A standard chessboard is shown with Black at the top. The boards "black squares" are light gray. Black (which is drawn as dark gray) has made moves resulting in Qf2, Nd4, e4, a5, Bc5, e5 and Ne7 while other black pieces are in starting positions. White has made moves resulting in c4, f4, h4, Kc3, Ne2 and three white pawns are removed from the board while other white pieces including a- and b-pawns are in starting positions. Two squares associated with white's move Ne2 are highlighted in yellow, it has moved there from its starting position g1.]

:[To the right of the chess board is a vertical list of possible moves listed in alphabetical order. The text is in light gray, except the move Ne2 in the middle which is black and highlighted in yellow. Two light gray double arrows with a line at the end of each arrow head goes from the top to just above the yellow move, and from just below this to the bottom. A short but thick black arrow points in between the space between the two gray arrows pointing at the yellow move.]
:a3
:a4
:b3
:b4
:Bd2
:Bd3
:Be2
:Be3
:Bg2
:Bh3
:f5
:fxe5
:h5
:Na3
:Nd2
: '''Ne2'''
:Nf3
:Nh3
:Qa4+
:Qb3
:Qc2
:Qd2
:Qd3
:Qe1
:Qe2
:Qf3
:Qg4
:Qh5
:Qxd4
:Rh2
:Rh3

:[Caption below the panel:]
:My new AlphaMove chess engine, which sorts the list of legal moves alphabetically and picks the middle one, was quickly defeated by stronger engines.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics with color]]
[[Category:Comics with lowercase text]]
[[Category:Chess]]

1297: Oort Cloud

2025-01-30T13:12:36Z

172.70.163.142: /* Explanation */

{{comic
| number = 1297
| date = November 29, 2013
| title = Oort Cloud
| image = oort_cloud.png
| titletext = ...I wanna try. Hang on, be right back.
}}

==Explanation==
The {{w|Oort cloud}} is a hypothesized sphere containing many {{w|small Solar System bodies}}, reaching out to roughly 50,000 {{w|Astronomical unit|AU (astronomical units)}} or nearly one {{w|light-year}} from the Sun. Gravitational forces from passing stars or collisions with other objects sometimes perturb one of these bodies enough to let it fall into the inner solar system. When it gets closer to the Sun, which is just a bright dot at that far distance, it warms up and some of its mass is lost as gas and dust, making it more visible as an object commonly referred to as a comet. In the comic, an object from said Oort cloud sees the Sun in the distance, decides to check it out, and comes to regret it for this reason.

There seems to be no definitive astronomical definition of the word "comet", and definitions can be challenging and problematic [http://suitti.livejournal.com/56460.html?nojs=1], but in general terms a comet is a celestial object consisting of a nucleus containing a huge amount of ices and dust which, when near the Sun, has an atmosphere (called {{w|Comet#Coma and tail|coma}}) and perhaps a 'tail' of ionized gas and dust particles pointing away from the Sun.

The comet pictured here upon its return strangely resembles the unusual asteroid {{w|P/2013 P5}}. That object sported six comet-like tails, but it's not a comet. Rather, the six comet-like tails were suspected to be caused by rapid spinning of that object.

Randall has drawn the hapless Oort Cloud object with its tails generally left of frame, i.e. away from the Sun. Comet tails point away from the Sun regardless of their direction of movement, as they are blown out by the solar wind which moves much faster than the comet. As neither of the other two objects have tails, this lends the picture a comical cartoon-like quality, as when Yosemite Sam is blasted by his own gun and it leaves his mustache tails statically pointing away from the direction of the blast.

{{w|C/2012 S1|Comet ISON}} presumably came from the Oort cloud and reached its closest approach to the Sun ({{w|Apsis|perihelion}}) on the day before this comic was published. The comet passed very close to the Sun, at a distance of 1,860,000 kilometers or 1,150,000 miles from the center of the sun. It was thus within one Sun-diameter of the surface of the Sun itself (diameter of Sun = 1,391,000 km). At that distance the temperature, at approx. 2,700 degrees Celsius, vaporizes rock as well as ice and can break the comet apart entirely.

The broken-up object here is presumed to be ISON, and is labeled as such in the transcript, even though Randall hasn't unambiguously identified it. Note that it's not realistic that ISON still would have a tail so far away from the Sun.

On December 2, 2013 NASA released a statement that ISON did not survive its close perihelion with the Sun. The Comet ISON Observing Campaign posted a delightful biographical sketch (In Memoriam Comet C/2012 S1 (ISON) Born 4.5 Billion BC, Fragmented Nov 28, 2013, age 4.5-billion yrs old) which touches on its early years, retreat to the Oort Cloud, career as a Sungrazer, "dynamic and unpredictable life, alternating between periods of quiet reflection and violent outburst", delicate inner working, and its tragic demise.

The closest approach of ISON to the Earth was predicted for December 27, 2013 at a distance at approx. 60 million kilometers or 37 million miles, 170 hundred times more than the Moon. The {{w| Hubble Space Telescope}} [http://www.universetoday.com/107407/hubble-looks-but-finds-no-trace-of-comet-ison/ looked for it on December 18] but saw nothing.

This video shows an animation of the encounter at the Sun: [http://stereo-ssc.nascom.nasa.gov/browse/2013/11/28/ahead_20131128_cor2_rdiff_512.mpg ISON 28.11.2013].

===Perspective===
Some more information about comets will help put the comic in perspective:
*The surface of cometary nuclei reflects less sunlight than asphalt. Telescopes can't identify or find them until they have a coma.
*An object at a distance of one light-year would only have an orbital speed about 100 meters per second; the speed of the Earth is about 30 kilometers per second.
*One revolution at that distance would last approximately 20 million years.

==Transcript==
:[Three asteroids float in space.]
:ISON: Have you noticed that bright dot in the distance?
:Asteroid: Yeah. What's the deal with it?

:ISON: Dunno. I'm gonna go check it out.

:[Pause while ISON checks it out off screen.]

:ISON (broken up, with multiple tails): Wow. Do '''''NOT''''' go over there.

{{comic discussion}}
[[Category:Astronomy]]