explain xkcd - User contributions [en]

Talk:2941: Cell Organelles

2024-06-04T10:10:00Z

172.70.231.39:

I'm a little disappointed there isn't a continuous endoplasmic reticulum with a zigzag in it.
Rogue mathematician away [[Special:Contributions/172.71.154.77|172.71.154.77]] 19:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry about the edit conflicts, attempting to fix.... [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.237|108.162.245.237]] 20:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Re [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2941:_Cell_Organelles&diff=343629&oldid=343628] is LLM use forbidden? I recall we have several ChatGPT-authored explanations, and had an ongoing discussion back when it was new. In any case, I've proofread and vouch for it, so I'm replacing the text. I encourage anyone who's bothered by it to paraphrase instead of delete. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.237|108.162.245.237]] 21:22, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

:If you've got the time to check AI-generated content properly and agree that it's what ''you'' would have written, you've got time to write it from scratch exactly how you'd have written it. And you get dangerously close to just putting in AI-content without checking at all, which right now is remains foolhardy.
:But, most of all, anything anyone submits can be changed by anyone else, and I don't know who picked up on it being AI and dealt with it the way they did, but only consensus can truly resolve where any attempt to impose an edit leads. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.119|162.158.74.119]] 22:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

::I almost completely agree with you for Wikipedia (I'd just change 'would' to 'could') and similar wikis, but it's undeniable that ExplainXkcd is different in some very substantial and obvious ways, many of which bear on whether to utilize AI. In particular, I would accept pretty much anything that helps explain the comic whether authored by human, machine, animal, or alien, but not hesitate for a second to, as the text below the Summary text input box says, edit it "mercilessly" whether I thought it was LLM-generated or not. But I wouldn't delete an even barely serviceable explanation ''just'' because I thought it came from an LLM, even if it was objectively low quality. I would try to improve it, which almost never means starting over from scratch. I'm not sure I believe the same is true for humans, who often insert, e.g., vandalism, trolling, or extremely undue and/or fringe topic passages. If an LLM is doing that, there's probably a human behind it. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.17|108.162.245.17]] 00:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

:Both the paragraphs and the table have been edited far enough from what ChatGPT pretty obviously came up with (almost all of which I would say merit inclusion unaltered, [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2941:_Cell_Organelles&diff=343604&oldid=343601 looking at the initial edits; although there is evidence that the LLM output was copyedited and wikilinked in a way that it would probably not do,] i.e., we use the {{tl|w}} template here which is not at all a Mediawiki standard, the Wikimedia wikis having a different form <nowiki>[[w:...]]</nowiki>) so that whatever deleterious LLM contamination they had has surely been beat out of them at this stage. Perhaps the GenAI deletionist is trying to encourage others to not fall prey to reliance on LLMs? A worthy goal, but I agree paraphrasing is far superior. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.34.180|172.69.34.180]] 01:57, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Re: the chloroplasts explanation: how do we know that this is an animal cell? (Would be good to say why...) -- [[User:Dtgriscom|Dtgriscom]] ([[User talk:Dtgriscom|talk]]) 22:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
:The cell has a membrane instead of a wall. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.90.199|162.158.90.199]] 22:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
::No, that’s human skin. [[User:Usb-rave|Usb-rave]] ([[User talk:Usb-rave|talk]]) 00:48, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
:::Yeah, the rule of thumb is of course a generalization worthy of chemistry "rules" -- the {{w|bone cell}} being perhaps the most obvious uncategorizable corner case of several. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.150.236|172.71.150.236]] 02:12, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Why does Golgi look like an alien, he's so little and cute. Wtf. [[User:Psychoticpotato|Psychoticpotato]] ([[User talk:Psychoticpotato|talk]]) 23:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

:You know what I would like to see from AI? A tiny white Grey Golgi alien working in the cytoplasm to build his apparatus. Please see below. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.147.106|172.71.147.106]] 03:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Should 2732: Bursa of Fabricius be referenced? It feels like the Golgi Apparatus is making a similar joke, if somewhat inverted. [[User:Dkfenger|Dkfenger]] ([[User talk:Dkfenger|talk]]) 01:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

To me, 'Drain plug' is an engine oil-drain plug. Yes it is a bolt, rarely used in biological systems. But a cell and an engine are normally full of fluid, while plumbing sinks are normally empty. --[[User:PRR|PRR]] ([[User talk:PRR|talk]]) 02:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
:To me it's about as often something you would find in a kitchen or bathroom sink, especially if the plumbing was from the 1970s or earlier. Honestly I'm too young to know when sink plugs fell out of favor to levers. In any case, an actual hole in the cell membrane is almost always a potentially mortal wound, and few cells have any means of repairing all but the smallest tears. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.207.197|172.70.207.197]] 02:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello there! 👋 I think you guys mixed up midichlorian and mitochondria explanations. 👋 You surely will want to fix that. 👋 Also, you want to make me a sandwich. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.177|172.70.85.177]] 05:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
:LGTM. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.146.218|172.71.146.218]] 09:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm a little bit disappointed that there's no Sulawesi hidden in there. This is the sort of comci you'd expect it in. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 06:48, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I dislike that this table is in alphabetical order instead of the top-down order they were meant to be read.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.231.39|172.70.231.39]] 10:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

=== Golgi by AI art contest ===

Survey questions: (1) Which of these do you like the best? https://ibb.co/album/68tCSn Can you do better?

(2) Does anyone know how to make AI animations like those? [[Special:Contributions/172.71.142.181|172.71.142.181]] 03:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

== Nucleolus ==

Wouldn't "Nucleololus" be a better continuation to "Nucleus" and "Nucleolus", with each term getting one more "ol" between "e" and the second "u"? [[Special:Contributions/172.71.222.50|172.71.222.50]] 08:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2941: Cell Organelles

2024-06-04T10:08:57Z

172.70.231.39:

I'm a little disappointed there isn't a continuous endoplasmic reticulum with a zigzag in it.
Rogue mathematician away [[Special:Contributions/172.71.154.77|172.71.154.77]] 19:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry about the edit conflicts, attempting to fix.... [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.237|108.162.245.237]] 20:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Re [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2941:_Cell_Organelles&diff=343629&oldid=343628] is LLM use forbidden? I recall we have several ChatGPT-authored explanations, and had an ongoing discussion back when it was new. In any case, I've proofread and vouch for it, so I'm replacing the text. I encourage anyone who's bothered by it to paraphrase instead of delete. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.237|108.162.245.237]] 21:22, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

:If you've got the time to check AI-generated content properly and agree that it's what ''you'' would have written, you've got time to write it from scratch exactly how you'd have written it. And you get dangerously close to just putting in AI-content without checking at all, which right now is remains foolhardy.
:But, most of all, anything anyone submits can be changed by anyone else, and I don't know who picked up on it being AI and dealt with it the way they did, but only consensus can truly resolve where any attempt to impose an edit leads. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.119|162.158.74.119]] 22:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

::I almost completely agree with you for Wikipedia (I'd just change 'would' to 'could') and similar wikis, but it's undeniable that ExplainXkcd is different in some very substantial and obvious ways, many of which bear on whether to utilize AI. In particular, I would accept pretty much anything that helps explain the comic whether authored by human, machine, animal, or alien, but not hesitate for a second to, as the text below the Summary text input box says, edit it "mercilessly" whether I thought it was LLM-generated or not. But I wouldn't delete an even barely serviceable explanation ''just'' because I thought it came from an LLM, even if it was objectively low quality. I would try to improve it, which almost never means starting over from scratch. I'm not sure I believe the same is true for humans, who often insert, e.g., vandalism, trolling, or extremely undue and/or fringe topic passages. If an LLM is doing that, there's probably a human behind it. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.17|108.162.245.17]] 00:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

:Both the paragraphs and the table have been edited far enough from what ChatGPT pretty obviously came up with (almost all of which I would say merit inclusion unaltered, [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2941:_Cell_Organelles&diff=343604&oldid=343601 looking at the initial edits; although there is evidence that the LLM output was copyedited and wikilinked in a way that it would probably not do,] i.e., we use the {{tl|w}} template here which is not at all a Mediawiki standard, the Wikimedia wikis having a different form <nowiki>[[w:...]]</nowiki>) so that whatever deleterious LLM contamination they had has surely been beat out of them at this stage. Perhaps the GenAI deletionist is trying to encourage others to not fall prey to reliance on LLMs? A worthy goal, but I agree paraphrasing is far superior. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.34.180|172.69.34.180]] 01:57, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Re: the chloroplasts explanation: how do we know that this is an animal cell? (Would be good to say why...) -- [[User:Dtgriscom|Dtgriscom]] ([[User talk:Dtgriscom|talk]]) 22:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
:The cell has a membrane instead of a wall. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.90.199|162.158.90.199]] 22:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
::No, that’s human skin. [[User:Usb-rave|Usb-rave]] ([[User talk:Usb-rave|talk]]) 00:48, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
:::Yeah, the rule of thumb is of course a generalization worthy of chemistry "rules" -- the {{w|bone cell}} being perhaps the most obvious uncategorizable corner case of several. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.150.236|172.71.150.236]] 02:12, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Why does Golgi look like an alien, he's so little and cute. Wtf. [[User:Psychoticpotato|Psychoticpotato]] ([[User talk:Psychoticpotato|talk]]) 23:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

:You know what I would like to see from AI? A tiny white Grey Golgi alien working in the cytoplasm to build his apparatus. Please see below. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.147.106|172.71.147.106]] 03:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Should 2732: Bursa of Fabricius be referenced? It feels like the Golgi Apparatus is making a similar joke, if somewhat inverted. [[User:Dkfenger|Dkfenger]] ([[User talk:Dkfenger|talk]]) 01:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

To me, 'Drain plug' is an engine oil-drain plug. Yes it is a bolt, rarely used in biological systems. But a cell and an engine are normally full of fluid, while plumbing sinks are normally empty. --[[User:PRR|PRR]] ([[User talk:PRR|talk]]) 02:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
:To me it's about as often something you would find in a kitchen or bathroom sink, especially if the plumbing was from the 1970s or earlier. Honestly I'm too young to know when sink plugs fell out of favor to levers. In any case, an actual hole in the cell membrane is almost always a potentially mortal wound, and few cells have any means of repairing all but the smallest tears. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.207.197|172.70.207.197]] 02:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello there! 👋 I think you guys mixed up midichlorian and mitochondria explanations. 👋 You surely will want to fix that. 👋 Also, you want to make me a sandwich. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.177|172.70.85.177]] 05:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
:LGTM. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.146.218|172.71.146.218]] 09:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm a little bit disappointed that there's no Sulawesi hidden in there. This is the sort of comci you'd expect it in. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 06:48, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

=== Golgi by AI art contest ===

Survey questions: (1) Which of these do you like the best? https://ibb.co/album/68tCSn Can you do better?

(2) Does anyone know how to make AI animations like those? [[Special:Contributions/172.71.142.181|172.71.142.181]] 03:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I dislike that this table is in alphabetical order instead of the top-down order they were meant to be read.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.231.39|172.70.231.39]] 10:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

== Nucleolus ==

Wouldn't "Nucleololus" be a better continuation to "Nucleus" and "Nucleolus", with each term getting one more "ol" between "e" and the second "u"? [[Special:Contributions/172.71.222.50|172.71.222.50]] 08:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

2941: Cell Organelles

2024-06-04T10:05:50Z

172.70.231.39:

{{comic
| number = 2941
| date = June 3, 2024
| title = Cell Organelles
| image = cell_organelles_2x.png
| imagesize = 563x451px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = It's believed that Golgi was originally an independent organism who was eventually absorbed into our cells, where he began work on his Apparatus.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by a GOLGI ENDOPLASMIC RETICULUM. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

This comic depicts a {{w|Cell (biology)|biological cell}} diagram with a mix of real and fictional {{w|organelle}}s, blending accurate {{w|Cell biology|cell biology}} terms with misplaced or absurd labels. While it includes actual cell components like the nucleus, mitochondria, and Golgi apparatus, it also includes unrelated concepts from various fields such as geology, engineering, software, and pop culture. Labels like "evil endoplasmic reticulum" and "sticky endoplasmic reticulum" make fun of scientific terms. The comic plays on the complexity and diversity of cell structures by mixing in unrelated and humorous terms, highlighting the often confusing and intricate nature of scientific diagrams with clever wordplay and cross-disciplinary jokes.

The title text adds a humorous fictional backstory to the {{w|Golgi apparatus}}, an essential cell organelle involved in processing and packaging proteins. It playfully suggests that {{w|Camillo Golgi}}, the scientist who discovered the Golgi apparatus, was originally an independent organism. This organism was supposedly absorbed into our cells, where it then started working on what is now known as the Golgi apparatus. The joke is a satirical take on {{w|Symbiogenesis|endosymbiotic theory}}, which posits that certain organelles within {{w|Eukaryote|eukaryotic}} cells, like {{w|mitochondria}} and {{w|chloroplasts}}, originated from independent symbiotic {{w|Prokaryote|prokaryotic organisms}} that were absorbed by a host {{w|germ cell}}. Golgi appears to be depicted in the comic as a tiny alien being.

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Label
! Meaning
! Real?
! Cell organelle?
! Explanation
|-
| {{w|Carbonation}}
| {{w|Carbon dioxide}} dissolved in a liquid.
| Yes
| No
| Carbonation causes soda pop and similar liquids to bubble, fizz, foam, and {{w|effervesce}}.
|-
| {{w|Cellophane}}
| A thin, transparent sheet made of regenerated {{w|cellulose}}.
| Yes
| No
| A type of packaging material. A {{w|cell wall}} is indeed made of cellulose, though not in the form cellophane. Also, this drawing looks more like an animal cell, which (unlike plants and fungi) should not have a cell wall.
|-
| {{w|Chloroplast}}s if you're lucky
| Organelles in plant cells responsible for photosynthesis.
| Yes
| Yes
| Actual cell organelles, only found in plant cells. The phrase "if you're lucky" could simply be a comment on their not being found in all cells, or it could suggest that of all foreign objects that Randall could have added to an animal cell, chloroplasts are one of the least dangerous.
|-
| Drain plug
| A stopper for a drain.
| Yes
| Conceivably
| A plumbing term, which could refer to a {{w|porosome}}. Even small, temporary damage to the integrity of the {{w|cell membrane}} puts the cell at immediate and great risk of death.
|-
| Evil endoplasmic reticulum
| Not a real term.
| No
| No
| A humorous twist on the different types of actual {{w|endoplasmic reticulum|endoplasmic reticula}}, implying a malevolent version.
|-
| Golgi
| {{w|Camillo Golgi}} (1843–1926) was an Italian biologist and {{w|pathologist}} who discovered the Golgi apparatus; known also for his works on the central nervous system.
| Yes
| No
| The real Golgi was not and is not a tiny alien being who merged with our cells, as the comic and title text imply.{{cn}}
|-
| {{w|Golgi apparatus}}
| A complex of {{w|vesicles}} and folded membranes involved in secretion and intracellular transport.
| Yes
| Yes
| Actual cell organelle, which takes {{w|polypeptide}} chains from the rough endoplasmic reticulum (carried via transport vesicle) and processes them into their ultimate protein structure before sending them (via vesicles) to their destination (such as an organelle or outside of the cell).
|-
| Human skin
| The outer covering of the human body.
| Yes
| No
| Skin cells aren't normally inside other cells, but dead skin cell fragments can be inside {{w|phagocyte}}s. The label, however, is drawn connected to the outer {{w|cell membrane}} or the {{w|extracellular matrix}}.
|-
| {{w|Hypoallergenic}} filling
| Materials that cause relatively fewer allergic reactions.
| Yes
| No
| Consumer product term.
|-
| {{w|Lithosphere}}
| The rigid outer part of the earth, consisting of the crust and upper mantle.
| Yes
| No
| Term from geology; part of the Earth's crust.
|-
| {{w|Mantle}} 
| The layer of the earth between the crust and the core.
| Yes
| No
| Misplaced geological term with many other meanings.
|-
| {{w|Midichlorians}}
| Fictional microorganisms in the {{w|Star Wars}} universe, which confer Force sensitivity and thereby {{w|Jedi}} associated powers.
| No
| Fictional
| It's unclear whether {{w|George Lucas}} intended for "midi-chlorians" to be {{w|Symbiogenesis|endosymbiotic organelles}} or internal {{w|Symbiosis|symbionts}}.
|-
| {{w|Mitochondria}}
| Organelles that generate energy for the cell.
| Yes
| Yes
| Actual cell organelles, widely known as the "powerhouse of the cell."
|-
| Natural flavor
| Flavoring derived from natural sources.
| Yes
| Conceivably
| A common ingredient on labels, usually meaning any substance to add flavor, aroma, or both, other than synthetic chemicals which are referred to as artificial flavors.
|-
| {{w|Norton AntiVirus}}
| A software product designed to protect computers from malware.
| Yes
| No
| Computer viruses and biological viruses are completely different, and systems designed to counter one generally don't work for the other. Many cell types do have antiviral mechanisms, notably the {{w|CRISPR}} (Clustered Regularly Interspaced Short Palindromic Repeats) DNA sequences in prokaryotes, which resist viral (bacteriophage) infection. However, the cell shown is not prokaryotic, since it contains a nucleus.
|-
| {{w|Nucleolus}}
| A small dense spherical structure in the nucleus of a cell during {{w|interphase}}.
| Yes
| Yes
| Actual cell organelle, involved in {{w|ribosome}} production.
|-
| Nucleoloulous
| Not a real term.
| No
| No
| A humorous continuation of the terms "nucleus" and "nucleolus."
|-
| {{w|Cell nucleus|Nucleus}}
| The central and most important part of an object, forming the basis for its activity and growth.
| Yes
| Yes
| Actual cell organelle which houses genetic material.
|-
| {{w|Nucleon}}s
| Protons and neutrons in the nucleus of an atom.
| Yes
| No
| The depicted circles are far too big to be actual nucleons.
|-
| {{w|O-ring}}
| A mechanical gasket in the shape of a torus; used to seal connections.
| Yes
| No
| Engineering term. Both the o-ring and pith are drawn connected to the inner cell membrane.
|-
| {{w|Pith}}
| The central tissue in plants, used for nutrient transport.
| Yes
| No
| Botanical term. See immediately above.
|-
| {{w|Pleiades}}
| A cluster of stars in the constellation Taurus.
| Yes
| No
| Even a single star is far too big to fit in a cell.{{cn}}
|-
| {{w|Rough endoplasmic reticulum}}
| Endoplasmic reticulum with {{w|ribosomes}} attached, involved in protein synthesis.
| Yes
| Yes
| Actual cell organelle. "Rough" refers to the presence of ribosomes covering its membrane, which translate {{w|messenger RNA}} into polypeptide chains. Normally the endoplasmic reticulum would wrap around the cell nucleus.
|-
| {{w|Seed}}s
| Plant embryos used for reproduction.
| Yes
| No
| Seeds are multicellular, and sometimes contain small proportions of non-cellular tissue.
|-
| {{w|Slime}}
| A moist, soft, and slippery substance.
| Yes
| Conceivably
| Could refer to the texture and appearance of {{w|cytoplasm}}, but not specific to cells.
|-
| {{w|Smooth endoplasmic reticulum}}
| A network of tubular membranes within the cytoplasm of the cell, involved in the transport of materials.
| Yes
| Yes
| A standard term for the smooth (i.e., not ribosome-covered) portion of the endoplasmic reticulum.
|-
| Sticky endoplasmic reticulum
| Not a real term, although parts of the reticula have sticky pockets.[https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcell.2023.1156152/full]
| No
| No
| Another humorous twist on the actual types of endoplasmic reticula.
|-
| {{w|Ventricle}}
| A chamber of the heart that pumps blood out.
| Yes
| No
| Ventricles are actually part of the body, and they are composed of many cells. Possibly a pun on {{w|vesicle}} (or {{w|vacuole}}), a small membrane-enclosed vessel, such as the transport vesicles that carry polypeptides from the rough endoplasmic reticulum to the Golgi apparatus for processing.
|-
| {{w|Vitreous humour}}
| The clear gel that fills the space between the lens and the retina in the eyeball.
| Yes
| No
| The vitreous humor is in eyes, not cells.
|-
| Weak spot
| A vulnerable point.
| Yes
| Conceivably
| {{w|Cell membrane}} surfaces do indeed vary in strength, often due to the presence of organelles such as {{w|ion channel pore}}s or {{w|porosome}}s, both of which can be leveraged by viruses to enter cells.
|}

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

Cell Organelles

[A cell is shown with the following structures and areas labeled, counter-clockwise from upper left:]

* Smooth endoplasmic reticulum
* Lithosphere
* O-Ring
* Pith
* Nucleus
* Nucleolus
* Nucleoloulous
* Nucleons
* Drain plug
* Evil endoplasmic reticulum
* Hypoallergenic filling
* Weak spot
* Mitochondria
* Midichlorians
* Chloroplasts if you're lucky
* Human skin
* Carbonation
* Golgi
* Golgi apparatus
* Norton AntiVirus
* Sticky endoplasmic reticulum
* Pleiades
* Natural flavor
* Cellophane
* Rough endoplasmic reticulum

[These labels are inside the cell:]

* Ventricle
* Mantle
* Slime
* Vitreous humour
* Seeds

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Biology]]