explain xkcd - User contributions [en]

2845: Extinction Mechanisms

2023-10-24T07:42:50Z

172.70.85.218: Added link to 1211: Birds and Dinosaurs.

{{comic
| number = 2845
| date = October 23, 2023
| title = Extinction Mechanisms
| image = extinction_mechanisms_2x.png
| imagesize = 307x438px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = The Late Heavy Bombardment was followed a few billion years later by the Comparatively Light but Oddly Specific Bombardment.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by an EXTREMELY WELL-AIMED SPACE ROCK - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

Around 66 million years ago there was a {{w|Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event|mass extinction event}} responsible for the extinction of all non-avian dinosaurs. This is why there are no more dinosaurs (except for birds! [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1211:_Birds_and_Dinosaurs]) There have been a number of explanations for this, but most currently accepted explanations center on the {{w|Chicxulub crater|Chicxulub impact}}, in which a large asteroid (the comic suggests it was a comet) hit the Earth. The exact mechanism for the extinction caused by this event, however, is not clear. The comic suggests three possibilities: {{w|impact winter}} caused by dust released from the impact, {{w|firestorms}} along with {{w|ocean acidification}} from acids generated by the impact, and the enhanced eruption of volcano(es) in the {{w|Deccan Traps}} region in India. Here all three possibilities have been crossed out and a fourth one, "the rocks hit the dinosaurs," is circled as the correct answer.

The argument is that the comet had a volume of 500 km3 (10 km diameter), or 5×1014 L. Earth has a surface area of around 500 million km2, or 5×1014 m2. The idea is that the comet broke up into liter-sized rocks that were somehow evenly distributed over the Earth's surface, one per square meter, hitting each of the dinosaurs. It is unclear how such a breakup or scattering might have occurred.

The title text refers to a hypothetical event early in Earth's history, ironically known as the Late Heavy Bombardment, in which a number of asteroids struck the Earth and other terrestrial planets around 4 billion years ago. The mass extinction event of 66 million years ago is then referred to as the "Comparatively Light but Oddly Specific Bombardment", presumably because it isn't as heavy as the LHB, but oddly specific in its targets.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}
:[A drawing of the Chicxulub meteor]
:Marking to the right: ≈ 500 km3 (5 × 1014 L)
:[Five arrows show individual small rocks coming from the meteor and spreading across the Earth. A sixth arrow provides more elaboration.]
:Marking of the separate rock: 1 liter rocks
:[The rock is shown entering a square marked "1 m2", which has another arrow to a larger grid of squares, before an arrow back to the Earth.]
:Marking near example square meter: >1 rock per m2

:[Four dinosaurs are drawn, including a theropod, what may be a velociraptor, a sauropod, and a triceratops. Each has a small rock falling directly toward it.]

:Comet Extinction Mechanism Ideas
:<s>Dust caused impact winter</s>
:<s>Firestorms and ocean acidification</s>
:<s>Triggered Deccan Traps magma</s>
:[This last suggestion is circled rather than struck through:]
:The rocks hit the dinosaurs

:[Caption below the panel:]
:Paleontologists are missing the obvious answer.

{{comic discussion}}
[[Category:Dinosaurs]]

2837: Odyssey

2023-10-05T12:11:56Z

172.70.85.218: /* Transcript */ Transcript markup improvements. (Note that div-formatting/etc isn't itself very transcript-friendly. And "width:fit-content;" actually makes it several pixels too narrow on my screen, but I won't try to mess with it.)

{{comic
| number = 2837
| date = October 4, 2023
| title = Odyssey
| image = odyssey_2x.png
| imagesize = 669x251px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = Ugh, it says they attempted delivery but "Nobody was home."
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by an ODYSSEY TRANSLATION - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

In this comic Cueball receives a present from Ponytail: a translation of the ''Iliad'', by {{w|Emily Wilson (classicist)|Emily Wilson}}. The ''{{w|Iliad}}'' is an {{w|Ancient Greek}} epic poem authored by Homer about the Trojan War. Wilson published her translation of the ''Iliad'' in September 2023, several weeks before the release of this comic.

Cueball then orders the ''{{w|Odyssey}}'', Wilson's earlier translation of another well known epic poem of ancient Greece. In the story, a Trojan War hero named Odysseus journeys home. Wilson published this translation in 2017, to great acclaim.

One of the events in the ''Odyssey'' is that his return voyage was blown off course before they could reach their home, and instead arrived at the island of the Lotus-Eaters. It would be another 10 years before Odysseus would make it home. In the comic, the same fate befalls the book delivery; 2033 is 10 years after Cueball ordered the book.

* Package delays are not uncommon, but anticipated 10-year delays due to weather conditions and blissed out islanders are a bit more rare. The implication is that the package carrier was at sea after departing the warehouse and found themself swept onto the island and ate of the lotus flower, causing them to not want to leave for years.

The '''title text''' refers to a moment in the ''Odyssey'' when Odysseus escapes from the Cyclops while identifying himself as "Nobody". After Odysseus has drugged him with drink and blinded him, the Cyclops cries out that "Nobody" had attacked him. Since "Nobody" was attacking the cyclops, his neighbors have no reason to help and return to their homes, allowing Odysseus and his remaining crew to escape. Similarly, if "Nobody" is home, then obviously no packages should be delivered.

* This scenario presupposes that in 2033 the package carrier (or automated delivery robot) approached the front door, asked if anyone was home, heard that "nobody" is home from someone other than Cueball, and decided not to deliver the package, much to Cueball's chagrin.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

:[Ponytail, Cueball and Hairy are standing in a room, each wearing a party hat. Ponytail is to the left of Cueball and Hairy. Cueball is holding something, presumably a present.]
:Ponytail: Happy birthday!
:Cueball: Oh cool, Emily Wilson's ''Iliad'' translation!

:[Cueball is now alone, sitting at a laptop. He has taken his party hat off and put it onto a book on his desk.]
:Cueball: I never read her ''Odyssey''. I should read that, too.
:[Arising from computer screen:]
::''The Odyssey'' (2017)
::Emily Wilson
::Arrives Friday
:: <div style="border-radius:15%;background-color:#DDD;width:fit-content;padding:2px;border:1px solid black;">Order</div>
:[Cueball clicks order]

:[The computer now says the book has left the warehouse and will arrive on Friday by 8pm.]
::Package Tracking
::Order Status:
:: <div style="background-color:#DDD;width:fit-content;padding:2px;border:1px solid black;">Departed warehouse</div>
::Expected: Friday by 8pm
:[Cueball clicks refresh]

:[The computer now says the book has been swept by winds to the island of lotus eaters and ''might'' arrive around 2033.]
::Package Tracking
::<div style="background-color:#DDD;width:fit-content;padding:2px;border:1px solid black;">Swept by winds to the island of the lotus eaters</div>
::Expected: ?? 2033 ??
:[Cueball clicks refresh]

{{comic discussion}}
[[Category: Comics featuring Ponytail]]
[[Category: Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category: Comics featuring Hairy]]
[[Category: Fiction]]
[[Category: Comics featuring real people]]

Talk:2835: Factorial Numbers

2023-10-02T09:02:35Z

172.70.85.218: /* Radix Economy */

Number systems aren't real math, at least not serious math. They're an affectation. 99.9% of math is number-system-independent, so nobody should care about them. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.46.108|172.70.46.108]] 22:30, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

: Of course it's "real math." There aren't that many applications, but so what? Math isn't about applications. Besides, there are some. Maybe not specifically for factorial base, but for some place systems. The only thing "dirty" about decimal is the arbitrariness of ten. Considering place systems in general is just considering special kinds of sums. Certainly, "serious" mathematicians are interested in proving numbers normal in specific bases, or in every base. [[User:EebstertheGreat|EebstertheGreat]] ([[User talk:EebstertheGreat|talk]]) 01:55, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

: A great deal of interesting maths can be found in and around the various arrangements of digits in numbers systems, surely. AzureArmageddon 07:54, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I thought this was a complete joke, until coming here. The "factorial number system" exists?! [[Special:Contributions/162.158.90.249|162.158.90.249]] 22:38, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
:Yup, complete news to me too... What's REALLY weird: the night before this comic I was tutoring a friend's daughter in math, and I happened to teach her what factorials are! (News to me there's a number system, though)... [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 04:59, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I wanted to add a link to a converter, but the one I found is https://www.dcode.fr/factorial-base which is quite ugly with lots of adds and a bit counter-intuitive.--[[User:Pere prlpz|Pere prlpz]] ([[User talk:Pere prlpz|talk]]) 23:42, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

This needs simplifying a bit. Came here because I had no idea what was going on, and after a quick scroll through the prose, the main thing I learned was "it's 'cause you're dumb". May be true but I still don't get what Randall's factorial system is....[[User:Alcatraz ii|Alcatraz ii]] ([[User talk:Alcatraz ii|talk]]) 01:25, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Factorial base also allows to finitely represent all rational numbers - no constant base is capable of that! [[Special:Contributions/172.68.238.76|172.68.238.76]] 01:55, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
: Unless you use a division sign. But yes, only radix numerals of a variable base with infinite series of factors of every prime can even theoretically finitely represent arbitrary rationals without invoking existential quantifiers. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.147.26|172.71.147.26]] 06:43, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I feel like Michael when Oscar is trying to explain what a “surplus” is.[[Special:Contributions/162.158.186.241|162.158.186.241]] 04:12, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

== The warning is complete nonsense, just remove it ==

bots cant be escorted out of somewhere just remove the stupid warning [[Special:Contributions/162.158.203.109|162.158.203.109]] 04:28, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

: you must be new here - [[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.143|108.162.216.143]] 15:51, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

: The nonsense is part of the fun. AzureArmageddon 07:52, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

::im deleting it {{unsigned ip|162.158.203.80|11:16, 30 September 2023}}‎

:::Premature elision. Still has a purpose (as does signing your contributions here). [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.208|172.71.178.208]] 14:58, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
:::<nowiki>*</nowiki>sigh* As has been stated, you MUST be new here. The "incomplete" tag goes on new comics while their descriptions are still in flux. When the bot creates the empty description page, it does so with the Incomplete warning, labelled with its name. On the first edit, someone ALWAYS changes the name to some silly gag that's related to the comic, often pretending it's the name of the bot that created the page for us. In this case the comic shows Cueball being escorted out, so the joke is the bot is being escorted out. If you're not going to have a sense of humour, why are you here? Just leave the editing to others in the meantime. :) (Oh, and as the user above noted, make sure to end your comments with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> (4 tildes), like it says at the top of the editing text box you type in). :) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
:Okay, now the Incomplete warning needs to stay up forever. :) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

== The "adic" part of factor-adic numbers ==

It's not explicitly mentioned in the comic but the "adic" in the name "Factor''adic''™" implies that the number system extends the factorial number system by being in some way "adic" as discussed in [https://youtube.com/watch?v=tRaq4aYPzCc this YouTube video on the Veritasium channel] and so negative numbers would have a truly wacky representation that violates the intent of the title text's pronouncement by requiring an infinitely long representation requiring infinite digits (1, 2, 3, 4, ..., 9, A, B, C, ..., ''infinite digits''). AzureArmageddon 08:00, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

: The "adic" in factoradic doesn't actually relate to p-adic numbers of any kind. Rather, both factoradic and p-adic numbers use the suffix -adic to refer to the concept of adicity, which is "The number of arguments or operands a function or operation takes" according to Wiktionary. Each place value of a p-adic number had p possibilities, and each place value in the factoradic system has a number of possible arguments determined by the factorial of the place. Factoradic would be better called "factorary" since it's more similar to ordinary n-ary number systems, but I guess it just isn't. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.205.130|172.69.205.130]] 20:43, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

:: Ah, today I learned. AzureArmageddon 15:35, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

== Title text ==
The title text references that 10! = 3,628,800 (base 10), and so for numbers greater than or equal to that, you would have to add a tenth digit in order to display them in this system. The question is asking whether you would then proceed to using letters of the alphabet such as one does in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexadecimal hexadecimal] to which the reply is that numbers above this amount are simply illegal. The trouble comes when you try to write down the number 10 * 10! = 36,288,000 (base 10) in this system. For 10!, the notation is 1000000000 , so 9 * 10! would be 9000000000, and then to get 10 * 10!, you would have to write A000000000 because 10 * 10! < 11!. In fact, since this is the first "illegal" number, you could "legally" allow up to 10 * 10! - 1 = 36,287,999 (base 10) in the system (which would be written as 9987654321 = 9 * 10! + 9 * 9! + 8 * 8! + ... + 2 * 1! + 1 * 1!) without the need to introduce any letters. I also want to point out that the reference in the comic to 9 being reserved for big numbers is due to no number needing a 9 to write it down in this system until 9 * 9! = 3265920 which is written 900000000. Since numbers above 10! are not allowed, this means that only the 9! digit is legally allowed to hold a 9, and it only applies to numbers in that high range of 3265920 to 3628799.[[Special:Contributions/172.71.166.230|172.71.166.230]] 15:01, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
:I feel the current in-Explanation explanation about that already covers this, with the addition of the validity that the digit that could need to be >9 could still be any digit 0..9 without needing to invoke the 11th digit. (Maybe a few tweaks, but not sure what you're trying to add here.) [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.148|172.70.86.148]] 15:13, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

== Radix Economy ==
Someone got in there just before I did, about (from a quick scan of what's been added) "economical" use of Factorial-based variable radices. (I was planning both the test code and the explanation for this, whilst travelling.) My short way of putting it is that (apart from values of zero or one, which represent identically in Factorial-based notation to any other notation in base of 2+) the Factorialised method initially is using up 'places' quicker until the point at which it has reached a 'magnitude' equal to its base-normal 'original' (i.e. only when there are N glyphs made available under Factoradic notation does it not rush through the 'magnitude' quicker than the base-N number). And ''then'', it needs to work up into the more 'efficient' higher-order digits in order to pull back the disadvantages of its lower-order ones and equal, then be shorter than, any given value's respective base-N form. 
Now, I've done some very rough calculations (started hitting numbers for which I really need to convert everything into high-precision large-number data types, which needs me to rewrite one or two elements of my existing code) and looked at the successive changes of magnitude, in each base, and checked the calculated Factoradic length (with the assumption that there are enough extended glyphs to represent every digit singly, unlike the comic Title Text speculation). 
By my reckoning, Base-2 is more efficient at 20fact (compare with 1002, =410); Base-3 breaks better at
3111fact (100003, =81); Base-4: 540220fact (10000004, =4096); Base-5: 533340021fact (10000000005, =1953125); Base-6: 90967344000fact(1000000000006, =362797056); Base-7: 7ABAA086002001fact(1000000000000007, =678223072849); Base-8: D73A256860540220fact(100000000000000008, =281474976710656); Base-9: B1HEA65678836651220fact(100000000000000008119, =1350851717672992000) ...but at this point, the conversion of decimal to its base-9 form (and that powers of 9 should ''never'' have trailing zeros!) shows I may very well have hit a limit to normal large-number precision, so I really can't trust the subsequently derived base-10 values. 
But, in case anyone wants it, the following is my (Perl, but should be easily convertible into most medium-to-high level code dialevts) en-Factoriadialising function.
sub factadic { my ($n,$place)=(@_,1);
return () unless $place;
if ($n>=fact($place+1)) { return factadic($n,++$place) }
my $digit=0; my $base=fact($place);
while ($n>=$base) { $digit++; $n-=$base; }
my @return=($digit,factadic($n,$place-1));
return @return;
}
You call it as <code>factadic(''<value>'')</code>. Or <code>factadic(''<value>'',''<minimum_digits>'')</code> to start with the assumption of at least a minimum number of digits, but it'll start by shifting the default minimum of 1 into the <script>$place</script> variable if you don't give it that (there are other ways that you can/must do that, of course), and it will still always expand that to the degree necessary in the first phase of 'diving in' as far as it needs to in order to agree with the <code>fact()</code> function (factorial calculator, a trivial coding issue that I only use here like this because I alreadu set it up for another bit of code). 
It returns an array (@-variable, in Perl) of digits, in standard most-to-least-significance order, that you can convert to a glyphwise notation in any way that you wish (or do a string conversion within the function, at each stage of building it up). ...and I'm presenting a ''slightly'' less optimised version of it here (some of the Perl-tricks I originally used don't translate well into some non-Perl) and, yes, the <code>while ($n>=$base)</code> loop could be done using modulus and integer-division, but it's a fairly trivial part of the looping process. 
If you have any ''real'' problems with it, it's probably going to be if you're hitting any recursion-depth limits (especially as it uses roughly twice as many recursive calls as the eventual notation-length it produces). I also have a 'stack-based' version (loops round as it shifts in enough 'slots', then works back down again assigning the place-values) which avoids such trouble, but that's coded in a slightly esoteric Perlish way that I'm not sure most of you'd appreciate. ;) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.76.77|141.101.76.77]] 20:25, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
: Probably a double precision floating point accuracy limitation, you can only get up to 2^53 = 9007199254740992 before many modern programs start getting numerically fuzzy. But what weirds me out is you seem to have gotten 1350851717672992900 out of what should have been 9^19 = 1350851717672992089, instead of a nearby float of 1350851717672992768 or 1350851717672993024. What is it with things rounding to decimal like that? [[Special:Contributions/172.71.147.84|172.71.147.84]] 11:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
::One 'solution' is to <code>use Math::BigFloat</code> (or similar), in the Perl, and make hold such sensitive and large-tending values. Alternately, implement an array of digits in a raw manner (can be of entirely arbitrary base, explicitly, plus arbitrarily long; well, as long as one doesn't hit ''other'' data limits!) and make your own long-division/etc algorithms. Or pack bitwise/bytewise data as a 'string', with suitable overloaded/replacement mathematical functions. But it all adds extra coding effort, of course. And I rarely share my various hacked-together bits of Perl, because they either work but look horrible or they don't work (and probably look strange, even to me - hence why I've failed to discover why they don't work!). [[Special:Contributions/172.71.98.87|172.71.98.87]] 19:39, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
: Just analyzed the growth rate; For base x, the length can be estimated by 1/2+e*x-e-1.487*ln(x). Maybe a more sniped nerd can get more precision, or even an exact solution; but this is within a digit of the result up to around base 10^13, and then I start running into precision problems in general, so I'm just putting this here as a good enough guess. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.146.129|172.71.146.129]] 13:20, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Factorial numbers is new to me... It sounds more like a coding system than a number system, LOL! "The door code is 4503 in factorial! Figure it out!" (I'd write this on the bottom of the comments as usual, but I don't want to get mixed up with that ill-thought out and unsigned coding sample Algorithm and table that I KNOW must be mangled when published because the wiki refuses to honour single Newlines. Clearly the author didn't take a peek at what it looks like when published EDIT: Correction, wow, the wiki spotted the code and marked it as such automatically (for now), wow!) :) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 04:59, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

All the stuff about economy / efficiency doesn't seem to really have any direct relation to the comic, so I'd suggest it doesn't really belong in the explanation, but should be confined to the comments, or at least to a trivia section. Not least because it dives off into a lot of technical stuff that ''itself'' requires explanation for a significant part of the readership. As it is, it's doing more to confuse than to explain.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.218|172.70.85.218]] 09:02, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

== Factoradic Algorithms ==

there are several ways to compute the factoradic of a base 10 number, depending on the choice of language
the length of the program will be demonstrably bigger. Dynamically typed languages, like perl can likely
perform this in one or two lines, where as a language like c++ will be longer.

The simplest algorithm is to generate the digits from right to left one at time by dividing the number by the radix until the quotient reaches zero:

#include <iostream>
#include <algorithm>
using namespace std;
int factoradic(int num) {
string digits;
int radix = 2;
while (num != 0) {
digits.push_back(to_string(num % radix)[0]);
num /= radix++;
}
reverse(digits.begin(), digits.end());
return atoi(digits.c_str());
}

Using Randall's values we can confirm it is correct:

int main(int argc, char* argv[]) {
for (int i = 21; i < 26; i++)
cout<<i<<" - "<<factoradic(i)<<endl;
for (int i = 5038; i < 5042; i++)
cout<<i<<" - "<<factoradic(i)<<endl;
for (int i = 999998; i < 1000002; i++)
cout<<i<<" - "<<factoradic(i)<<endl;
return 0;
}

max@laptop:~/$ ./factoradic
21 - 311
22 - 320
23 - 321
24 - 1000
25 - 1001
5038 - 654320
5039 - 654321
5040 - 1000000
5041 - 1000001
999998 - 266251210
999999 - 266251211
1000000 - 266251220
1000001 - 266251221

926: Time Vulture

2023-09-28T09:06:34Z

172.70.85.218: /* Explanation */ (a) Millenium is 1000 years; (an unspecified number of) Millenia are (on the rough order of) thousands of years. Making the addition syntactically agree with the thing being added to.

{{comic
| number = 926
| date = July 18, 2011
| title = Time Vulture
| image = time vulture.png
| titletext = In a way, all vultures are Time Vultures; some just have more patience than others.
}}

==Explanation==
This comic is about the ''time vulture'' (hence the title), a fictional creature made up by [[Randall]]. [[Cueball]] notices that his Cueball-like friend is followed by a time vulture, making the exclamation '' Dude, you've got a time vulture.''

The primary food source for {{w|Vulture|vultures}} is carrion, or rotting meat. A time vulture, as explained by Cueball, is a type of vulture that can live for {{w|Millennium|millennia}} (1000s of years), spending very little energy and it can even slow down its internal clocks so time speeds past, a kind of forward time travel, to the point where its prey dies. In this way, it can thus always wait long enough for the prey to die of natural causes no matter how long it takes, as seen from the prey's point of view. So in principle they kill their prey by using aging, as Cueball explains, although in fact, like any vulture, they just find prey that has already (almost) died, as from their point of view every living thing is just about to die. But as with other vultures, they do not participate in the actual killing. Time vultures thus just need to locate and find any one living creature (of a reasonable size), then it becomes it’s prey as it then just waits until it dies, spending hardly any energy while it waits. Real {{w|List of soaring birds|soaring}} vultures can also stay afloat for considerable time spans without actually using any energy as they just {{w|Lift (soaring)|float}} on {{w|thermals}}.

Thus the time vulture will now keep soaring over Cueball’s friends head for the rest of his life, or until they travel on an airplane (airplanes typically cruise at an altitude too high for a vulture to fly over them, although it is of course possible that the vulture could board the plane as well), and then when he dies (whenever and of whichever cause), it will descend and feast on his carcass. This should, in principle, not make any difference to the friend, since most people already live with the knowledge that they will eventually die{{Citation needed}}, and that their body will end up being destroyed one way or another. Typically it will not be caused by vultures, but for instance by the fire of the {{w|Crematory}} or by the {{w|decomposition}} caused by small animals and germs in the earth we are buried in.

However, it is not very nice to be reminded of this every living second of the rest of your life thus the consternation of the friend and his question and statement; ''But what if the prey doesn't die?'' and ''I'm not about to die...''

At first, the question doesn’t make sense since there are no known examples of terrestrial animals (including humans) that are large enough to matter as prey for a vulture and can survive through the several millennia that a time vulture can wait. The few {{w|List_of_longest-living_organisms|species that can live that long}} and grow at least as large as vulture prey, such as the 2,384 acre (965 hectare) "Humongous Fungus", an individual of the fungal species ''{{w|Armillaria solidipes}}'' in the {{w|Malheur National Forest}}, thought to be between 2,000 and 8,500 years old<ref>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/03/030327074535.htm Humongous Fungus A New Kind Of Individual</ref><ref>http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-largest-organism-is-fungus Strange but True: The Largest Organism on Earth Is a Fungus</ref>, and a {{w|Great Basin bristlecone pine}} (''Pinus longaeva'') measured by {{w|dendrochronology|ring count}} to be over 5000 years old.<ref>http://www.rmtrr.org/oldlist.htm</ref>, are stationary, such as fungi and plants, or aquatic, such as coral and sponges. Thus, the moving land species large enough to be attractive as prey will always die within the lifespan of the vulture (as Cueball tries to explain).

However, the question actually does make sense, because the prey does not have to outlive the vulture to avoid being eaten by the vulture; it simply has to live long enough to get to an airport, get through security screening, and board a flight that goes either too fast or too high for the vulture to follow. Therefore, the vulture would get to eat the prey only if the prey died on the way to the airport, while standing outdoors in line for security screening, or while walking from the terminal to the airplane (if passengers board outdoors instead of using a {{w|jet bridge|passenger boarding bridge (Jetway)}}). It is possible that the prey might not die this soon, unless security screening lines exceed the maximum human lifespan of approximately 120 years.

And because the time vulture can slow down its internal clock, in its point of view, everyone who ever says "But, I'm not about to die", would say so right before they die; actually anything a person ever says after the time vulture has locked on to that person, happens just before they die as seen from the vulture's point of view. In humans' point of view, it could be many years after the statement was made, but for the time vulture, a human lifespan only lasts a mere moment.

Of course, since a human can travel a considerable distance in this time, even around the world, the human would be traveling at an extremely high velocity from the vulture's perspective, so the vulture would be unable to keep up and the human would escape. In a more extreme fashion, since the vulture’s perception of time is significantly slowed, it would be more simple to buy a rifle and kill the Time Vulture.

It is thus really more of a philosophical comic about the fact that we all have death waiting for us, you could say it soars above our head and just wait for it to happen. And in relation to the {{w|deep time}} of the geology of the Earth or the expansion of the universe, the time it takes for people to live their lives is hardly worth mentioning...

In the title text it is stated that all real life vultures are actually a kind of time vultures, as real life vultures also sometimes spot a dying animal, not quite dead yet, and then wait for this prey to die. But time vultures are able to wait for millennia for their prey to die, whereas regular vultures do not have that kind of time, before they need to feed or land, thus the comment that some vultures have more patience than others.

Real vultures and their preying habits were referenced in [[1746: Making Friends]], directly in the title text.
<references/>

==Transcript==
:[Cueball is watching a large black bird, with apparently fractal wings, which hovers above his Cueball-like friend who walks towards Cueball and now turns to look at the bird over his shoulder.]
:Cueball: Dude, you've got a Time Vulture.
:Friend: Holy crap! What is it?

:[Zoom-in on Cueball who now looks at his friend who are now standing close to Cueball looking up at the bird off-panel.]
:Cueball: They're predators that use aging to kill prey.
:Friend: Huh? What do you mean?

:[The panel zooms in on the Cueball's face. The friends reply comes from off-panel.]
:Cueball: They live for millennia and use little energy. They can slow down their internal clocks so time speeds past. To hunt, they lock on to some prey, and when it stops moving, they eat it.
:Friend (off-panel): But what if the prey doesn't die?

:[Zoom out to Cueball and his friend that now look at each other.]
:Cueball: I don't think you quite understand.
:Friend: I mean, ''I'm'' not '''about''' to die...
:Cueball: From the vulture's viewpoint, everyone says that moments before they do.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category:Multiple Cueballs]]
[[Category:Time]]
[[Category:Animals]]
[[Category:Philosophy]]

Talk:1285: Third Way

2023-09-28T09:02:05Z

172.70.85.218:

I think the article should explain the 'typewriter story' mentioned in the title text. [[User:Ollieollieoxenfree|Ollieollieoxenfree]] ([[User talk:Ollieollieoxenfree|talk]]) 04:22, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm wondering if the title text refers to the habbit many people have of slamming on their space key creating a very load sound- hence you can hear the difference between one space and two. But I'm not confident enough to edit the page [[Special:Contributions/173.245.52.97|173.245.52.97]] 19:12, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

One line per sentence is reminiscent of a diagrammed/formal logic argument in philosophy. It would be a much more effective convention to help people parse and interpret content and validity of e.g. political claims. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.63.198|173.245.63.198]] 17:21, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Line break after every sentence. 
Because I can. 
[[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.7|108.162.245.7]] 04:41, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

ONE SPACE AFTER A PERIOD. '''[[User:Davidy22|{{Color|#707|David}}y²²]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 04:38, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
:MY VOTE TOO!!! --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 18:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
:MY VOTE, TWO!!! (not really) [[User:Orazor|Orazor]] ([[User talk:Orazor|talk]]) 09:20, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Writing plaintext, I always do two spaces after a sentence ending period.
This is probably because I did in fact start typing on a real typewriter.
In an environment where automatic formatting will take place, like a web page or wiki text, I use the newline.
I have had people in this wiki collapse my multiple line forms to one of the others.
(I was disappointed.)
--[[User:Divad27182|Divad27182]] ([[User talk:Divad27182|talk]]) 04:48, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I prefer double spacing, but I used single spacing in writing the explanation, just to make people happy. Perhaps I should have used new lines. [[User:Concomitant|Concomitant]] ([[User talk:Concomitant|talk]]) 05:10, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
: I'm a double-spacer too. Am I wrong? I can't break myself of the habit, I even do it in tweets! --[[User:Jeff|Jeff]] ([[User talk:Jeff|talk]]) 16:43, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The 'third way' is a little underappreciated here: it divides the text into self contained logical units, and makes text processing tools (grep, diff etc.) much more usable.
Proper text rendering engines (TeX, HTML, etc.) already make this assumption and group sentences accordingly.
If only I realized this earlier, it would have made my thesis revisions much more easier.
In fact, up to this moment, I thought I was that lone guy in the comic.
EDIT: this comment in xkcd forums makes my point clear: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=106217#p3489055
--[[Special:Contributions/141.101.96.11|141.101.96.11]] 05:42, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

:As a programmer, I find nothing weird in adapting your style to language. Writing two spaces in HTML or TeX is useless, as they won't render as two spaces anyway. (While using for this purpose nonbreakable spaces, which would render, is a crime.) -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 10:48, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
::It would also render incorrectly if the period was close to the end of a line. If the markup is [last word of sentence][period][nbsp][space][next sentence], the last word of the first sentence could end up on the next line unnecessarily. But if it's [last word of sentence][period][space][nbsp][next sentence], the next line of text would start with a space, which is much worse.--[[User:Rael|Rael]] ([[User talk:Rael|talk]]) 15:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

::I end my sentences with a line break, a % and another linebreak. Only after commata etc i use a single line break. Oh, and don't forget to protect the space after points used in abbreviations, not as full stops, by a backslash. Most TeX increase the length of the space after a full stop a bit. Bit question: Why don't double space people, when using Word not just use a longer space instead of a double space. Noone would have the idea to indent a paragraph or substitute a tab with a series of spaces.[[Special:Contributions/108.162.242.117|108.162.242.117]] 03:11, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
:::Because the keyboard does not contain a longer space key.--[[Special:Contributions/173.245.52.188|173.245.52.188]] 18:13, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I always just find and replace double space with single space. If formatting suffers, someone did a bad job.[[Special:Contributions/108.162.231.228|108.162.231.228]] 06:33, 1 November 2013 (UTC) Synthetica

I always just find and replace single space with double space. If formatting suffers, someone did a bad job.--[[Special:Contributions/173.245.52.188|173.245.52.188]] 18:13, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

So, why did double spacing after a period ever exist? It doesn't seem necessary. [[User:PheagleAdler|PheagleAdler]] ([[User talk:PheagleAdler|talk]]) 07:31, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
:Here's the standard explanation: on typewriters, each character takes up the same amount of space. So a lower-case "i" takes up the same amount of space as a capital "M". This is called a monospace font. When typing, if you just put a single space after the end of period ending a sentence, the reader doesn't necessarily get the sense that a new sentence has started. This is particularly true if you were typing in all caps, as might be common on some types of forms or documents. Two spaces, however, does the job nicely. In theory, with modern proportional-width fonts, this is unnecessary. [[User:Rylon|Rylon]] ([[User talk:Rylon|talk]]) 23:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
::Here's the researched explanation: http://www.heracliteanriver.com/?p=324 So technically, an em-space after a period, an en-space after a comma. Or you know, whatever you want. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.250.161|108.162.250.161]] 06:22, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

even though i learned typing on a typewriter, to this day i had never heard of the double space thing. maybe it's a US only thing, like the stupid french with spaces BEFORE punctuation marks. [[User:Peter|Peter]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 07:54, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
:I've always taken the double-space thing as a US thing. Some editors like emacs default to it, which is really annoying. That said, as a frenchman, the "space before punctuation" is normal to me and it is part of the ''codified'' typography -- and I think this is actually an important distinction to make. Is this double-space vs single-space something codified somehow? As a last word, I need to be nitpicky: the exact French typography rule is "a space before punctuation made of two parts (namely colon, semi-colon, exclamation/question mark) and no space before punctuation made of a single part (dots, commas.)" It's a very deterministic rule that is easy to apply (whether one agrees to it or not.) [[User:Ralfoide|Ralfoide]] ([[User talk:Ralfoide|talk]]) 16:40, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
::This is a common question from the French and some other nationals. The answer is that English does not work that way. There is no official codified version. The most you have is small pockets of codification within an organization, such as The University of Boulder, or UPI or the US Army. If you're working in or with such an organization you should use their standard. If you try to extend any such standard to the rest of the world you are a nasty egomanical control freak who should be chopped into pieces and fed to the fishes.--[[Special:Contributions/173.245.52.188|173.245.52.188]] 18:25, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

As a german typographer I have to say I’m ''shocked''! ''Two'' spaces per period? A space ''before'' punctuation?! My scientific opinion: you all are completely crazy ;-) (Just kidding, but seriously, two spaces? In Germany, the first possibility to do that safely is your last will …) [[User:Quoti|Quoti]] ([[User talk:Quoti|talk]]) 10:34, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The doubled spaces appear in my browser's tooltips. (Maybe someone should add some non breaking spaces to the quotation of the tooltip text?) --[[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.236|141.101.98.236]] 10:45, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

As a(n automatic) two-spacer person (just you watch, I'll use 'em here, despite it obviously not being rendered), it's just what I learnt, back in the '70s, here in the UK. I've no idea ''why'' I learnt it. However, it may stem from the same root as the 'rule' in handwriting (not biros, but nibbed pens dipped in ink... wow, I feel old, but it ''was'' at primary school) that we use a gap as big as our our (very little) little-fingers to separate sentences. I imagine differentiating full-stops (US: periods) from commas in the messy medium of ink might be a valuable visual indicator as to what a given smudge might ''actually'' be. So, anyway, double-spacing. On the other hand I should report that, "I've dropped the habit it of appropriate punctuation prior to quotes," I say, "despite being the way I learnt it." And instead I will drop "<- Commas from that sort of position," you see, "even through I'll keep the ones that are semantic pauses." You see how my standards are slipping? Anyway, good comic. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled programme.  [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.214|141.101.98.214]] 14:44, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

:I'm in the same boat this this bloke. I don't get the typewriter tie in. I seem to recall being taught to use a finger gage correct gap of whitespace to leave between the end of one sentence and the beginning of the next. This was in an American small town southern school in the early 1980s. I assume it was for readability. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.236.25|108.162.236.25]] 16:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The "third way" is used for articles on the [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news BBC News] website :-) --[[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.233|141.101.99.233]] 14:52, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
:Actually, they put each sentence into a paragraph of its own, which is yet different. (In HTML: <code>... .</code> vs. <code>... . </code>) --[[User:Das-g|Das-g]] ([[User talk:Das-g|talk]]) 16:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
:That's what I came here to say, that the Third Way is common-place on the web today, it is the tabloid style. This headline article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24775846 off the BBC right now only has full-stops (periods in en-US) before paragraph breaks, apart from quotations (ie what the BBC did not write). [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.229|141.101.98.229]] 16:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
:The BBC is not the only web site to do that - and it is '''so''' annoying. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.222.244|108.162.222.244]] 10:15, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

There's a FOURTH way! I receive a "Weekly Update from Senator Tim Scott" HTML formatted email about once a week (unsurprisingly) which, in lieu of spaces between words, uses a carriage return and a linefeed. This alleviates the question of how many spaces between sentences completely! It also renders as oneverylongword in my email client. Ie: <blockquote>Thankyouforsubscribingtomye-newsletter.</blockquote> [[Special:Contributions/108.162.236.25|108.162.236.25]] 16:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
: And a fifth: In France, they use one whitespace before and after double punctions (:;?!) but only one whitespace after single punctuation (.,). --[[Special:Contributions/141.101.79.25|141.101.79.25]] 20:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I think the finger space was to help kids create clear separation while developing their proficiency at penmanship.
I think the 2x space is a fall out from the fixed width formatting of typewriters to help assist the reader (or proof reader) with the start and end of a sentence.
Double spacing has almost become OCD for me. I can't help it. Of course I also leave paragraph marks on while I type as well. I wonder if the French would require a space before a double quote, "The author ponders. "

I think we could improve old school cryptography if we just used carriage returns and ignored the 'new' line.
I might be able to accept and adopt the single space rule if I can make my spaces default to twice the point size of every other character in the style.
[[Special:Contributions/199.27.128.186|199.27.128.186]] 19:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
:FOROL DSCHO OLCRY PTOGR APHYT AKEYO URCUE FROME NIGMA DECOD ESAND ARRAN GEEVE RYTHI NGING ROUPS OFFIV EWITH OUT''AN Y''PUNC TUAT IONAN DINAL LCAPS  [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.214|141.101.98.214]] 01:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I have my word processor set to a a gap equal to one and a half spaces after a sentence ends[[Special:Contributions/173.245.52.198|173.245.52.198]] 19:05, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

New paragraph (TWO line brakes) after every sentence :-) --[[User:Sten|Sten]] ([[User talk:Sten|talk]]) 20:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I love how the explanation uses the third method. Nice touch. [[User:JRDeBo|JRDeBo]] ([[User talk:JRDeBo|talk]]) 23:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone think there's any significance to the sword and the spear? [[Special:Contributions/108.162.208.144|108.162.208.144]] 23:46, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
:Yes, because this is a SERIOUS ISSUE. [[User:Alpha|Alpha]] ([[User talk:Alpha|talk]]) 06:35, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
:A sword has a longer blade, while a spear keeps people further away. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.210|108.162.219.210]] 12:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

According to the [[http://fireemblemwiki.org/Weapon_triangle Fire Emblem weapon triangle]], the 1-spacers win against the 2-spacers. Then again, I put one space after each sentence. [[User:Greyson|Greyson]] ([[User talk:Greyson|talk]]) 18:25, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Picture of a cat after every full stop !!! {{unsigned ip|173.245.51.221}}

With all the whitespace compression and variable width fonts in modern technology switching back to 2-space is as viable as switching over to localized Programmer Dvorak. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.231.18|108.162.231.18]] 13:44, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Hey, does anyone know if there's any way to make the wiki keep two spaces in a row, so the title text shows up properly? [[User:SuperSupermario24|Just some random derp]] 15:46, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I was mildly confused about the weird phrasing of "This comic refers to the dance-off occurring ..." I already forgot my browser plugin that I've installed an hour ago. I think its great that it happened on a xkcd-related site. --[[Special:Contributions/141.101.92.22|141.101.92.22]] 12:41, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm not from the US so I never actually heard about a rule with two spaces. From my point of view the rule is stupid, really dumb. Just let go of it! There is no reason for it. My brain starts to spasm when I hear about a rule of two spaces after a period. Ungh!! {{unsigned ip|162.158.86.113}}

The 2 spaces used in (early) PCs and TypeWriters (and TTYs) could be caused by the too little difference between a «.» and a «,» with little fonts on CRTs (''320*200px with 8*8px single letter with <16" monitors with a signal trought an RF cable, for a C64''), dot-printers (''like 60*75 dpi (h*v), 9*9 per character, for an Epson MX-80'') and typewritten sheets (''maybe with dirty sort/type'')?
[The examples in parentheses are for a mid-level-case, because there are worst monitors and standards than those, see previous comments]
''Nickh''²+, [[Special:Contributions/188.114.103.166|188.114.103.166]] 00:11, 10 November 2016 (UTC) .

Well, looks like the one-spacers will win due to the weapon triangle. After all, lances best swords. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.174.64|172.68.174.64]] 16:54, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
:Do line breakers count as axes or staves? [[User:Netherin5|Netherin5]] ([[User talk:Netherin5|talk]]) 14:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I just realized that there's a line break after ever sentence in this article.
(Insert formatting here)
:It’s four tildes (~ Those guys) to sign your comment. [[User:Netherin5|Netherin5]] ([[User talk:Netherin5|talk]]) 14:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I have an easy solution to the debate.
Just press the TAB key after each sentence (doesn't work here, because of editing reasons).

google docs actually enforces the one space style for capitalization.

Is it just me, or is the wiki intentionally using the third way? (I'm a one-spacer. See?
:WHy did you not close the bracket :( [[User:Beanie|Beanie]] [[User talk:Beanie|talk]] 10:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
::You opened another parenthesie! ):) --{{User:PoolloverNathan/Signature}} 18:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
0 spaces after a period.yes.[[User:Sci0927|Sci0927]] ([[User talk:Sci0927|talk]]) 15:01, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Interesting…I was always told that after an abbreviation like Mr. or Mrs. within a sentence, you were supposed to use a single space, and then after a sentence you would double space. Thus you would always have a clear visual indicator of whether a period was indicating an abbreviation or an end of sentence. Makes total sense, is entirely consistent, just like that weird French rule about spacing before double punctuation. Truly, has no one else here heard of this? Thatʼs why Iʼm inclined (prior to doing any research) to be in full agreement with the protestor saying that the monospaced font myth is totally made up. That being said, I also see it as a complete and total waste of good programming on the part of whoever it was who even bothered to cause HTML, et al to reduce extra whitespace in the first place! Imho, it should never have even occurred to them to write those lines of code at all. People should be free to write their whitespace exactly the way they want it and have it stay that way, without some web browser daring to presume that it knows the correct formatting better than the user does. smh lol
[[User:Heleatunda|Heleatunda]] ([[User talk:Heleatunda|talk]]) 06:37, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
:With the decline of "Mrs. Brown" compared with "Mrs Brown" (and initialisms not being dotted, all along; so not "N.A.S.A." but "NASA", and then examples like this even reduced to "Nasa"), the imperative to disambiguate isn't there. I was taught to ''write'' with more space (a little finger's-worth, when my little finger was much littler than today), for readability or even easy checking that there weren't any horribly-long run-on sentences.
:I'd carry that on into <dot><space><space> when typing (and word-processing), but it is one of the 'rules' that I've felt unnecessary (or even not useful) to maintain after entering the online ecosystem (pre-HTML) and seeing how many perfectly legible but varied typing styles there actually were out there. Even from such benighted lands such as the rebellious former colonies, which I'll admit have introduced me to many small changes to my British styling, and occasionally even spelling (though I'm still solidly an "-our" suffix person, "metre" for length and will continue to go with "-ise"/"-yse", as I see fit, etc). [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.218|172.70.85.218]] 09:02, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Talk:2832: Urban Planning Opinion Progression

2023-09-25T09:48:18Z

172.70.85.218:

Why does anyone want their city to be walkable? We have buses, Uber, and subways, so why walk anywhere other than to/from the station? [[User:SDSpivey|SDSpivey]] ([[User talk:SDSpivey|talk]]) 18:34, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
:Walking is free. It is flexible. Why would you want to take a Uber across 2 blocks of parkign to get to the next store, instead of having it right next to the one you just came from? Also it is nice for socializing, it is (quite light) exercise, and good for businesses, as you can actually "window-shop" and see what they have as you walk past and spontaniously walk into any store/restaurant/business. --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 06:24, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
::If you are just going across the parking lot, then it is already walkable. No further expense needed. Also, I sincerely do not know the last time I saw a store window that had any merchandise display. Perhaps that is not done in Florida. [[User:SDSpivey|SDSpivey]] ([[User talk:SDSpivey|talk]]) 06:40, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
:::It's a hen and egg thing. If everyone is driving, you don't need to put anything in the video, because there is noone to see it. But if the storefronts are not attractive thats one less reason to walk. And crossing a huge parking lot may in theory be walkable, but it is not really an enviroment attractive to walk through. --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 09:00, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Somebody has been watching Not Just Bikes on YouTube...
:Orange Pilled!!🙂 [[User:Torzsmokus|Torzsmokus]] ([[User talk:Torzsmokus|talk]]) 19:43, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I would be very interested in having a discussion based on the "livability" comment. If a city is a place to LIVE, then these are fair comments, assuming that travel outside the local area is minimal. But if a city is a place to WORK, like a lot of downtown areas in the Eastern US, then this doesn't hold up as well. People don't live in these areas, they just travel to them on a regular basis.
:Talk about missing the forest for the trees
:Agree, downtown areas SHOULD be places to work, live, shop, and play. Eastern US downtowns USED to be that way, until White Flight screwed everything up and created "car culture". It's long past due for cities to change back. - [[User:Frankie|Frankie]] ([[User talk:Frankie|talk]]) 15:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
::You can't really blame white flight considering the same thing happened in both 'racially homogenous' cities in the U.S. and in Canada. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.174.251|172.70.174.251]] 17:22, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
: One thing that always bugs me about these discussions is that they tend to be so city-centric in thinking. Bikes simply aren't a practical mode of transportation in a lot of areas, dating back to pre-car days. I live in a rural area of the southern midwest, and "town" is a concentration of places that people in the area go to, and always has been. Only really wealthy people had houses in town, and even then they were often "Sunday Houses" where you would stay during your weekend trip to town for groceries and church BECAUSE it was such a hassle before cars. There's a "historic" (read: tourist-friendly) walkable town square in the center of many towns in my area, but these are as a rule businesses, some of which have loft apartments because the owner lived there too as some of the town's few constant residents. Even the parking lots are basically paved versions of the spaces where people would park their wagons and tie their horses back in the day, placed near things like general stores because hauling groceries for several blocks is a pain in any era. [[User:Scorpion451|Scorpion451]] ([[User talk:Scorpion451|talk]]) 18:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
:: I've never really lived in small towns on this side of the world, but this video does a pretty good job on approaching urbanism from a rural perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKRr8ymaqBM [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
:: More generally, it's not really a useful, meaningful, or fair comparison between a densely populated country like the Netherlands (>1000/mi*mi) and a sparsely populated country like the USA (<100/mi*mi). All the USA's wide-open spaces are the actual physical reason we have a "car culture". It's not just people being deliberately being stupid or something. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.222.237|172.71.222.237]] 01:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
::: People aren't evenly spread over the US though, and nobody commutes from LA to NYC. 80% of people in the US live in cities. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.182.2|172.71.182.2]] 16:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

:Places meant for work and work alone are called 'industrial parks'. People's well-being in offices can significantly benefit from green spaces and other amenities like bars and shops.
:Especially if they feel safe walking to and from those shops. --[[User:Melle|Melle]] ([[User talk:Melle|talk]]) 16:54, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
:: Honestly, what impresses me the most about the Netherlands is not their neighbourhoods or city centres, it's their industrial parks. Dutch industrial parks are so much nicer it's not even funny. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXB0CY2tSQ [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

The explainxkcd explanations have gotten kinda funny, but I wanted to add that some european cities have sidewalks wider than roads, and it’s a much different experience. People like openness. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.62.55|162.158.62.55]] 17:46, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, I do not know how to format it, however this is the citation about painted vs protected bike lanes: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2214140523001056?dgcid=author [[User:Vdm|Vdm]] ([[User talk:Vdm|talk]]) 21:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, cities are much better place to live in without so many cars. But on the other hand, vacation without car is much more complicated, unless your idea of vacation is to get to exactly same place as everyone else. Soo ... where will all those cars go? I know, you could rent a car, but that only works if there wouldn't be times where EVERYONE suddenly needs car ... like, say, Christmas.

Also, no, bikes are not alternative to cars unless you can get shower when you arrive at work. Public transport could work, but bikes are just nice theory.

To conclude, I don't think trying to turn all cities into Amsterdam will work. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 22:07, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
: Bikes are an incredibly helpful and useful tool for getting around. You don't even have to turn a city into Amsterdam. I live in Edmonton, which is by no means an urbanist utopia, and even getting around here, combining a bicycle with public transit makes it so much easier and faster to get around. The issue I face is lugging my bike with me, in which case a bike share service like Montréal's BIXI would help out for getting around.
: Regarding your point on vacation, first of all, most people end up going to the same places for vacation anyway. And vacation without bringing a car can very much be done, and even at high-demand times, the places where "everyone needs a car" are places where everyone will be going anyway, at which point a train just makes more sense. About a decade ago, my family took a trip from New Delhi to Goa a decade back (around 1800 km away) and we took trains to get there. We rented a car to get around in Goa and it worked pretty well. Not saying that cars aren't useful at all, but they aren't a 100% necessity. They're most useful when you're heading somewhere that's out of the way, and I've done those sorts of trips too. [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

"...by allowing cyclists to cycle in the streets with the cars". ''Allowing''? Sorry, but that's a very neo-biker (or "person on a bike", rather than an actual cyclist) attitude that unfortunately seems to pervade the mindset of drivers. At least in the UK, bicycles have been 'allowed' (indeed, obliged) to ride upon the roads, as of laws as far back as [http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/72 1885] and are legitimate road vehicles and also not supposed to be ridden on actual pavements(/sidewalks) where not explicitly allowed. Of course, the US has policies driven (c.f. jaywalking). But a bicycle is a road vehicle. Add extra permissive routes (in the same manner as allowing traffic of less than three tonnes over a bridge, without forcing everything within that limit to do so) but you'd be wrong to suggest, over here, that you'd have to ''allow'' cyclists to cycle in(/on) the streets. Though the modern 'MAMILs' are often as wrong about all this (and as damaging to the reputation of real cyclists) as far too many motorists are. Of course, this may not reflect the US situation (or state/township legislations), but then they were influenced by the car-lobby to create the jaywalking 'crime' as well, so I really wouldn't be surprised. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.62|162.158.74.62]] 22:16, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I went to the Netherlands on vacation last month and I strongly identify with the guy waving flags and yelling "Netherlands! Netherlands! Netherlands!" in this comic. I was in Rotterdam, not Amsterdam, but I also spent a day in Enschede (near the border with Germany), and the sight was the same: bicycles everywhere, to a degree that would seem absurd anywhere else. I don't think it can be properly expressed in words; one look at the bicycle parking in Rotterdam Central Station and I was in awe that _so many bicycles_ could exist in one place. I used a bicycle to explore from The Haag to Neetle Jans and everywhere I went it was the same story; it isn't just Amsterdam, the entire country is built with bicycles as a solid and safe transportation option. --Faultline 11:32, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Speaking from the perspective of the UK, Cyclists (and I speak as one, with six decades of experience) are a complex issue. Being road vehicles (and requiring continuous at-grade surfaces, or at least smoothly transitioning slopes, whilst mounted) they need special consideration when laying out where they can go, outwith the baseline highway planning situation. And they also pose difficulties if improperly ridden in pedestrian areas, even if this is somehow due to being 'forced'(/’invited') off the roads by motorists and/or town planners that are in turn posing difficulties to them (legislatively, physically or just psychologically). In an ideal world, there would be no need for cycle lanes (on road), let alone cycle paths (split or shared pavement/sidewalk). And as it is not possible to have cycle-segregation everywhere (ignoring the question of whether forced segregation is a good policy!), I feel that attempting to take bicycles (or indeed other types of cycle!) off the road where it is easy and/or virtue-signalling makes the roads worse for cyclists ''everywhere else''. (And also the pavements worse for pedestrians, everywhere else!) 
There are (according to a quick check) 262,300 miles of paved road in the UK. Apart from the motorways (2,300 miles) and a smattering of other "no cycling" roads (often "motorway standard link roads" or major bridges), all of these are viable cycling routes. Maybe you'd not feel safe on some other routes (mostly a problem stemming from motorists, not the highways), so call it a cool quarter of a million miles. Compare with (again, a quick and unconfirmed check) the apparently 5,220 miles of traffic-free cycle paths (some 'cross country', bridleways/ex-railway/etc, others directly parallel to 'bike unfriendly/hostile/illegal' roadways) and 7,519 miles of on-road cycle lanes (paint and/or bollard-segregated, and I assume this includes bike+bus+taxi lanes and variations on that theme). Clearly, most places that you might want to cycle are not anywhere near covered by a convenient cycle-only(/dominant) path/road/lane/whatever. Even accounting for population density bias (a path-equipped city-centre ''can'' perhaps have a good few hundred thousand cyclists commuting along its copious off-street routes, whereas some remote area of equivalent road-length doesn't have more than a dozen people cycling around/through its country lanes on any given day), there's a distinct gap. 
And the problem is that car drivers (myself also being one, though only ''four'' decades behind the wheel, so what would I know?) seem to start to not anticipate bicycles on the road (or horses, or tractors, or anyone also driving but not actually going at-or-above the posted speed limit, etc) and at best they are startled/annoyed when they encounter their fellow road-users in different contexts. At worst, they 'come into contention' in a rather nasty way for at least one of the parties involved. 
'People on bikes' don't help when they (whether drivers themselves or not) do not obey [https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82 the rules of the road], and/or footway. They give actual cyclists a bad name, make motorists less tolerant of those who actually are folling both the rights and responsibilities of cycle traffic and cause 'contention' with pedestrians on ''their'' supposedly safer routes (and road crossings), amongst other issues. The number of times I've seen someone progress rapidly down a pavement on two wheels, having to swerve round people, swerve to cross side-roads (to use the disabled-friendly drop-curbs), hop onto the road and back on again because of obstructions (curb-mounted parked cars/construction works) and all disrupting (or even causing danger to everyone else off/on the road)... Quite often, they would have been quicker ''and safer'' to have just ridden on the road ''with'' the traffic (without earphones in, they'd also be much more aware so could overtake the slower traffic legally and in full consideration). 
Even worse, when there's a 'pavement biker' riding alongside a road ''with a clearly marked cycle lane'' on it. Road space reserved, but they're endangering pedestrians (and potentially themselves) needlessly. But, adding in the reckless pedestrians who do ''their'' dangerous things (walking up the central reservation of a dual-carriageway, e.g.), it just goes to show that there are unthinking individuals using every form of locomotion and travel (I could moan about thoughtless bus/train passengers, too, and don't get me started on illegal eScooters, motorbikes that may skirt the rules to some extent and possibly soms illegal variations of eBike as well). But, insofar as cycling, I'm not convinced that (partially) changing the road system to mitigate for bad drivers is really the best solution. It barely scratches that surface, it gets abused/ignored by those it may be intended for, it makes those it isn't intended for more resentful/inconsiderate as a push-back and the only obvious and tangible metric is in the press release that "Trumpton Town Council has been able to add five more miles of cyclepath..." (which probably consists of several short stretches of red tarmac is frequently intruded upon by pre-existing highway signage/lamp-posts and frequent "Cyclists Dismount" advisories, running alongside a perfectly ridable road just so long as they filled the wheel-/suspension-damaging potholes and swept the gutters once in a while). 
Can you tell that I've often thought about all these issues? I could go on, or into more detail, but I reckon I've already written far too much, uninvited. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.218|172.70.85.218]] 11:48, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

The summation of the situation: 
UNSPECIFIED line + SHORT distance = bicycle, walking, etc. 
SPECIFIED line + SHORT distance = tram, everything in unspecified. 
SPECIFIED line + LONG distance = train. 
UNSPECIFIED line + LONG distance = automobile.
 
The '''most''' important combinations for urban planning are unspecified short and specified long which autos aren't good at. The one autos are good at is the least important. -- [[User:Andrewtheexplainer|Andrewtheexplainer]] ([[User talk:Andrewtheexplainer|talk]]) 15:43, 24 September 2023 ''(please sign your comments with <nowiki>~~</nowiki>~~)''
:In answer the the editor who asked the question in the Edit Summary, about what "SPECIFIED and UNSPECIFIED" mean: Purely from context, I believe "line" above means "route". Some routes are (or can be) established as consistently demanded (for commuting, shopping, between major hubs half a continent away, etc) and can be "specified" as schedulable service for mass transit/infrastructure (anything from viable greyhound route with suitable identifiable service stops to an airline route (requiring airports at each end) or something asking for a railway/hyperloop/road to be either maintained (because it already exists) or created (because it does not at the moment) and is worth the while for such a special consideration. There's a degree of predictability to it, because of a mix of the same people regularly needing to make the trip (e.g. commute) and/or a continual/periodic demand by new people to make that journey (e.g. touristic purposes).
:An 'unspecified' route, here, would then be anything ad-hoc, at a frequency or quantity of use well below any particular reason to uphold a service or infrastructure (or coordinated compound of such facilities, like a shuttle bus to and from the station/airport to collect those flying in from afar), and would be served by such private efforts across and through whatever generic routable methodologies exist to be be exploited.
:And each of those two distinctions is multiplied by (at least!) two separate distinctions, that of length. (I'd be tempted to further split into other distances. Maybe localised, district, intra-state (from a US perspective), national and international, but that'd depend on what groupings I was analusing, and obviously a train could take one from one end of a (large enough) neighbourhood to the other ''or'' across the country (with the right conenctivity, even into another one!), depending upon which train and where it stops. But the above seems sufficient, as opposed to my overthinking of it.) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.96|162.158.74.96]] 22:22, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I would be weary of that "Netherlands" guy. https://what-if.xkcd.com/53/ https://what-if.xkcd.com/54/ and others [[Special:Contributions/162.158.22.17|162.158.22.17]] 23:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I can't be completely sure because of the black-and-white, but I'm afraid the guy with the scull cap is holding his flags upside down. It should be a red, then a white, then a blue stripe top to bottom. It's a very understandable mistake if he visited in the last two years or so, as it has become a trend to fly the flag upside down as a protest to certain controversial government descisions.

Not my best contribution ever, but: Hup HOLLAND Hup!!

Note bicycle-centric planning is infectious.If you go to https://www.opencyclemap.org/?zoom=7 and zoom in one level, you will see that it has expanded well beyond the boundaries of the Netherlands. 09:41, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

* Reads the line about 'all of Europe agrees' from the UK. Laughs mirthlessly* [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.218|172.70.85.218]] 09:47, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Talk:2832: Urban Planning Opinion Progression

2023-09-25T09:47:45Z

172.70.85.218:

Why does anyone want their city to be walkable? We have buses, Uber, and subways, so why walk anywhere other than to/from the station? [[User:SDSpivey|SDSpivey]] ([[User talk:SDSpivey|talk]]) 18:34, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
:Walking is free. It is flexible. Why would you want to take a Uber across 2 blocks of parkign to get to the next store, instead of having it right next to the one you just came from? Also it is nice for socializing, it is (quite light) exercise, and good for businesses, as you can actually "window-shop" and see what they have as you walk past and spontaniously walk into any store/restaurant/business. --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 06:24, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
::If you are just going across the parking lot, then it is already walkable. No further expense needed. Also, I sincerely do not know the last time I saw a store window that had any merchandise display. Perhaps that is not done in Florida. [[User:SDSpivey|SDSpivey]] ([[User talk:SDSpivey|talk]]) 06:40, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
:::It's a hen and egg thing. If everyone is driving, you don't need to put anything in the video, because there is noone to see it. But if the storefronts are not attractive thats one less reason to walk. And crossing a huge parking lot may in theory be walkable, but it is not really an enviroment attractive to walk through. --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 09:00, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Somebody has been watching Not Just Bikes on YouTube...
:Orange Pilled!!🙂 [[User:Torzsmokus|Torzsmokus]] ([[User talk:Torzsmokus|talk]]) 19:43, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I would be very interested in having a discussion based on the "livability" comment. If a city is a place to LIVE, then these are fair comments, assuming that travel outside the local area is minimal. But if a city is a place to WORK, like a lot of downtown areas in the Eastern US, then this doesn't hold up as well. People don't live in these areas, they just travel to them on a regular basis.
:Talk about missing the forest for the trees
:Agree, downtown areas SHOULD be places to work, live, shop, and play. Eastern US downtowns USED to be that way, until White Flight screwed everything up and created "car culture". It's long past due for cities to change back. - [[User:Frankie|Frankie]] ([[User talk:Frankie|talk]]) 15:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
::You can't really blame white flight considering the same thing happened in both 'racially homogenous' cities in the U.S. and in Canada. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.174.251|172.70.174.251]] 17:22, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
: One thing that always bugs me about these discussions is that they tend to be so city-centric in thinking. Bikes simply aren't a practical mode of transportation in a lot of areas, dating back to pre-car days. I live in a rural area of the southern midwest, and "town" is a concentration of places that people in the area go to, and always has been. Only really wealthy people had houses in town, and even then they were often "Sunday Houses" where you would stay during your weekend trip to town for groceries and church BECAUSE it was such a hassle before cars. There's a "historic" (read: tourist-friendly) walkable town square in the center of many towns in my area, but these are as a rule businesses, some of which have loft apartments because the owner lived there too as some of the town's few constant residents. Even the parking lots are basically paved versions of the spaces where people would park their wagons and tie their horses back in the day, placed near things like general stores because hauling groceries for several blocks is a pain in any era. [[User:Scorpion451|Scorpion451]] ([[User talk:Scorpion451|talk]]) 18:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
:: I've never really lived in small towns on this side of the world, but this video does a pretty good job on approaching urbanism from a rural perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKRr8ymaqBM [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
:: More generally, it's not really a useful, meaningful, or fair comparison between a densely populated country like the Netherlands (>1000/mi*mi) and a sparsely populated country like the USA (<100/mi*mi). All the USA's wide-open spaces are the actual physical reason we have a "car culture". It's not just people being deliberately being stupid or something. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.222.237|172.71.222.237]] 01:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
::: People aren't evenly spread over the US though, and nobody commutes from LA to NYC. 80% of people in the US live in cities. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.182.2|172.71.182.2]] 16:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

:Places meant for work and work alone are called 'industrial parks'. People's well-being in offices can significantly benefit from green spaces and other amenities like bars and shops.
:Especially if they feel safe walking to and from those shops. --[[User:Melle|Melle]] ([[User talk:Melle|talk]]) 16:54, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
:: Honestly, what impresses me the most about the Netherlands is not their neighbourhoods or city centres, it's their industrial parks. Dutch industrial parks are so much nicer it's not even funny. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXB0CY2tSQ [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

The explainxkcd explanations have gotten kinda funny, but I wanted to add that some european cities have sidewalks wider than roads, and it’s a much different experience. People like openness. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.62.55|162.158.62.55]] 17:46, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, I do not know how to format it, however this is the citation about painted vs protected bike lanes: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2214140523001056?dgcid=author [[User:Vdm|Vdm]] ([[User talk:Vdm|talk]]) 21:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, cities are much better place to live in without so many cars. But on the other hand, vacation without car is much more complicated, unless your idea of vacation is to get to exactly same place as everyone else. Soo ... where will all those cars go? I know, you could rent a car, but that only works if there wouldn't be times where EVERYONE suddenly needs car ... like, say, Christmas.

Also, no, bikes are not alternative to cars unless you can get shower when you arrive at work. Public transport could work, but bikes are just nice theory.

To conclude, I don't think trying to turn all cities into Amsterdam will work. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 22:07, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
: Bikes are an incredibly helpful and useful tool for getting around. You don't even have to turn a city into Amsterdam. I live in Edmonton, which is by no means an urbanist utopia, and even getting around here, combining a bicycle with public transit makes it so much easier and faster to get around. The issue I face is lugging my bike with me, in which case a bike share service like Montréal's BIXI would help out for getting around.
: Regarding your point on vacation, first of all, most people end up going to the same places for vacation anyway. And vacation without bringing a car can very much be done, and even at high-demand times, the places where "everyone needs a car" are places where everyone will be going anyway, at which point a train just makes more sense. About a decade ago, my family took a trip from New Delhi to Goa a decade back (around 1800 km away) and we took trains to get there. We rented a car to get around in Goa and it worked pretty well. Not saying that cars aren't useful at all, but they aren't a 100% necessity. They're most useful when you're heading somewhere that's out of the way, and I've done those sorts of trips too. [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

"...by allowing cyclists to cycle in the streets with the cars". ''Allowing''? Sorry, but that's a very neo-biker (or "person on a bike", rather than an actual cyclist) attitude that unfortunately seems to pervade the mindset of drivers. At least in the UK, bicycles have been 'allowed' (indeed, obliged) to ride upon the roads, as of laws as far back as [http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/72 1885] and are legitimate road vehicles and also not supposed to be ridden on actual pavements(/sidewalks) where not explicitly allowed. Of course, the US has policies driven (c.f. jaywalking). But a bicycle is a road vehicle. Add extra permissive routes (in the same manner as allowing traffic of less than three tonnes over a bridge, without forcing everything within that limit to do so) but you'd be wrong to suggest, over here, that you'd have to ''allow'' cyclists to cycle in(/on) the streets. Though the modern 'MAMILs' are often as wrong about all this (and as damaging to the reputation of real cyclists) as far too many motorists are. Of course, this may not reflect the US situation (or state/township legislations), but then they were influenced by the car-lobby to create the jaywalking 'crime' as well, so I really wouldn't be surprised. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.62|162.158.74.62]] 22:16, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I went to the Netherlands on vacation last month and I strongly identify with the guy waving flags and yelling "Netherlands! Netherlands! Netherlands!" in this comic. I was in Rotterdam, not Amsterdam, but I also spent a day in Enschede (near the border with Germany), and the sight was the same: bicycles everywhere, to a degree that would seem absurd anywhere else. I don't think it can be properly expressed in words; one look at the bicycle parking in Rotterdam Central Station and I was in awe that _so many bicycles_ could exist in one place. I used a bicycle to explore from The Haag to Neetle Jans and everywhere I went it was the same story; it isn't just Amsterdam, the entire country is built with bicycles as a solid and safe transportation option. --Faultline 11:32, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Speaking from the perspective of the UK, Cyclists (and I speak as one, with six decades of experience) are a complex issue. Being road vehicles (and requiring continuous at-grade surfaces, or at least smoothly transitioning slopes, whilst mounted) they need special consideration when laying out where they can go, outwith the baseline highway planning situation. And they also pose difficulties if improperly ridden in pedestrian areas, even if this is somehow due to being 'forced'(/’invited') off the roads by motorists and/or town planners that are in turn posing difficulties to them (legislatively, physically or just psychologically). In an ideal world, there would be no need for cycle lanes (on road), let alone cycle paths (split or shared pavement/sidewalk). And as it is not possible to have cycle-segregation everywhere (ignoring the question of whether forced segregation is a good policy!), I feel that attempting to take bicycles (or indeed other types of cycle!) off the road where it is easy and/or virtue-signalling makes the roads worse for cyclists ''everywhere else''. (And also the pavements worse for pedestrians, everywhere else!) 
There are (according to a quick check) 262,300 miles of paved road in the UK. Apart from the motorways (2,300 miles) and a smattering of other "no cycling" roads (often "motorway standard link roads" or major bridges), all of these are viable cycling routes. Maybe you'd not feel safe on some other routes (mostly a problem stemming from motorists, not the highways), so call it a cool quarter of a million miles. Compare with (again, a quick and unconfirmed check) the apparently 5,220 miles of traffic-free cycle paths (some 'cross country', bridleways/ex-railway/etc, others directly parallel to 'bike unfriendly/hostile/illegal' roadways) and 7,519 miles of on-road cycle lanes (paint and/or bollard-segregated, and I assume this includes bike+bus+taxi lanes and variations on that theme). Clearly, most places that you might want to cycle are not anywhere near covered by a convenient cycle-only(/dominant) path/road/lane/whatever. Even accounting for population density bias (a path-equipped city-centre ''can'' perhaps have a good few hundred thousand cyclists commuting along its copious off-street routes, whereas some remote area of equivalent road-length doesn't have more than a dozen people cycling around/through its country lanes on any given day), there's a distinct gap. 
And the problem is that car drivers (myself also being one, though only ''four'' decades behind the wheel, so what would I know?) seem to start to not anticipate bicycles on the road (or horses, or tractors, or anyone also driving but not actually going at-or-above the posted speed limit, etc) and at best they are startled/annoyed when they encounter their fellow road-users in different contexts. At worst, they 'come into contention' in a rather nasty way for at least one of the parties involved. 
'People on bikes' don't help when they (whether drivers themselves or not) do not obey [https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82 the rules of the road], and/or footway. They give actual cyclists a bad name, make motorists less tolerant of those who actually are folling both the rights and responsibilities of cycle traffic and cause 'contention' with pedestrians on ''their'' supposedly safer routes (and road crossings), amongst other issues. The number of times I've seen someone progress rapidly down a pavement on two wheels, having to swerve round people, swerve to cross side-roads (to use the disabled-friendly drop-curbs), hop onto the road and back on again because of obstructions (curb-mounted parked cars/construction works) and all disrupting (or even causing danger to everyone else off/on the road)... Quite often, they would have been quicker ''and safer'' to have just ridden on the road ''with'' the traffic (without earphones in, they'd also be much more aware so could overtake the slower traffic legally and in full consideration). 
Even worse, when there's a 'pavement biker' riding alongside a road ''with a clearly marked cycle lane'' on it. Road space reserved, but they're endangering pedestrians (and potentially themselves) needlessly. But, adding in the reckless pedestrians who do ''their'' dangerous things (walking up the central reservation of a dual-carriageway, e.g.), it just goes to show that there are unthinking individuals using every form of locomotion and travel (I could moan about thoughtless bus/train passengers, too, and don't get me started on illegal eScooters, motorbikes that may skirt the rules to some extent and possibly soms illegal variations of eBike as well). But, insofar as cycling, I'm not convinced that (partially) changing the road system to mitigate for bad drivers is really the best solution. It barely scratches that surface, it gets abused/ignored by those it may be intended for, it makes those it isn't intended for more resentful/inconsiderate as a push-back and the only obvious and tangible metric is in the press release that "Trumpton Town Council has been able to add five more miles of cyclepath..." (which probably consists of several short stretches of red tarmac is frequently intruded upon by pre-existing highway signage/lamp-posts and frequent "Cyclists Dismount" advisories, running alongside a perfectly ridable road just so long as they filled the wheel-/suspension-damaging potholes and swept the gutters once in a while). 
Can you tell that I've often thought about all these issues? I could go on, or into more detail, but I reckon I've already written far too much, uninvited. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.218|172.70.85.218]] 11:48, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

The summation of the situation: 
UNSPECIFIED line + SHORT distance = bicycle, walking, etc. 
SPECIFIED line + SHORT distance = tram, everything in unspecified. 
SPECIFIED line + LONG distance = train. 
UNSPECIFIED line + LONG distance = automobile.
 
The '''most''' important combinations for urban planning are unspecified short and specified long which autos aren't good at. The one autos are good at is the least important. -- [[User:Andrewtheexplainer|Andrewtheexplainer]] ([[User talk:Andrewtheexplainer|talk]]) 15:43, 24 September 2023 ''(please sign your comments with <nowiki>~~</nowiki>~~)''
:In answer the the editor who asked the question in the Edit Summary, about what "SPECIFIED and UNSPECIFIED" mean: Purely from context, I believe "line" above means "route". Some routes are (or can be) established as consistently demanded (for commuting, shopping, between major hubs half a continent away, etc) and can be "specified" as schedulable service for mass transit/infrastructure (anything from viable greyhound route with suitable identifiable service stops to an airline route (requiring airports at each end) or something asking for a railway/hyperloop/road to be either maintained (because it already exists) or created (because it does not at the moment) and is worth the while for such a special consideration. There's a degree of predictability to it, because of a mix of the same people regularly needing to make the trip (e.g. commute) and/or a continual/periodic demand by new people to make that journey (e.g. touristic purposes).
:An 'unspecified' route, here, would then be anything ad-hoc, at a frequency or quantity of use well below any particular reason to uphold a service or infrastructure (or coordinated compound of such facilities, like a shuttle bus to and from the station/airport to collect those flying in from afar), and would be served by such private efforts across and through whatever generic routable methodologies exist to be be exploited.
:And each of those two distinctions is multiplied by (at least!) two separate distinctions, that of length. (I'd be tempted to further split into other distances. Maybe localised, district, intra-state (from a US perspective), national and international, but that'd depend on what groupings I was analusing, and obviously a train could take one from one end of a (large enough) neighbourhood to the other ''or'' across the country (with the right conenctivity, even into another one!), depending upon which train and where it stops. But the above seems sufficient, as opposed to my overthinking of it.) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.96|162.158.74.96]] 22:22, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I would be weary of that "Netherlands" guy. https://what-if.xkcd.com/53/ https://what-if.xkcd.com/54/ and others [[Special:Contributions/162.158.22.17|162.158.22.17]] 23:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I can't be completely sure because of the black-and-white, but I'm afraid the guy with the scull cap is holding his flags upside down. It should be a red, then a white, then a blue stripe top to bottom. It's a very understandable mistake if he visited in the last two years or so, as it has become a trend to fly the flag upside down as a protest to certain controversial government descisions.

Not my best contribution ever, but: Hup HOLLAND Hup!!

Note bicycle-centric planning is infectious.If you go to https://www.opencyclemap.org/?zoom=7 and zoom in one level, you will see that it has expanded well beyond the boundaries of the Netherlands. 09:41, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

*Reads the line about 'all of Europe agrees' from the UK. Laughs mirthlessly* [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.218|172.70.85.218]] 09:47, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Talk:2832: Urban Planning Opinion Progression

2023-09-24T11:48:54Z

172.70.85.218:

Somebody has been watching Not Just Bikes on YouTube...
:Orange Pilled!!🙂 [[User:Torzsmokus|Torzsmokus]] ([[User talk:Torzsmokus|talk]]) 19:43, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I would be very interested in having a discussion based on the "livability" comment. If a city is a place to LIVE, then these are fair comments, assuming that travel outside the local area is minimal. But if a city is a place to WORK, like a lot of downtown areas in the Eastern US, then this doesn't hold up as well. People don't live in these areas, they just travel to them on a regular basis.
:Talk about missing the forest for the trees
:Agree, downtown areas SHOULD be places to work, live, shop, and play. Eastern US downtowns USED to be that way, until White Flight screwed everything up and created "car culture". It's long past due for cities to change back. - [[User:Frankie|Frankie]] ([[User talk:Frankie|talk]]) 15:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
::You can't really blame white flight considering the same thing happened in both 'racially homogenous' cities in the U.S. and in Canada. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.174.251|172.70.174.251]] 17:22, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
: One thing that always bugs me about these discussions is that they tend to be so city-centric in thinking. Bikes simply aren't a practical mode of transportation in a lot of areas, dating back to pre-car days. I live in a rural area of the southern midwest, and "town" is a concentration of places that people in the area go to, and always has been. Only really wealthy people had houses in town, and even then they were often "Sunday Houses" where you would stay during your weekend trip to town for groceries and church BECAUSE it was such a hassle before cars. There's a "historic" (read: tourist-friendly) walkable town square in the center of many towns in my area, but these are as a rule businesses, some of which have loft apartments because the owner lived there too as some of the town's few constant residents. Even the parking lots are basically paved versions of the spaces where people would park their wagons and tie their horses back in the day, placed near things like general stores because hauling groceries for several blocks is a pain in any era. [[User:Scorpion451|Scorpion451]] ([[User talk:Scorpion451|talk]]) 18:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
:: I've never really lived in small towns on this side of the world, but this video does a pretty good job on approaching urbanism from a rural perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKRr8ymaqBM [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
:: More generally, it's not really a useful, meaningful, or fair comparison between a densely populated country like the Netherlands (>1000/mi*mi) and a sparsely populated country like the USA (<100/mi*mi). All the USA's wide-open spaces are the actual physical reason we have a "car culture". It's not just people being deliberately being stupid or something. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.222.237|172.71.222.237]] 01:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

:Places meant for work and work alone are called 'industrial parks'. People's well-being in offices can significantly benefit from green spaces and other amenities like bars and shops.
:Especially if they feel safe walking to and from those shops. --[[User:Melle|Melle]] ([[User talk:Melle|talk]]) 16:54, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
:: Honestly, what impresses me the most about the Netherlands is not their neighbourhoods or city centres, it's their industrial parks. Dutch industrial parks are so much nicer it's not even funny. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXB0CY2tSQ [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

The explainxkcd explanations have gotten kinda funny, but I wanted to add that some european cities have sidewalks wider than roads, and it’s a much different experience. People like openness. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.62.55|162.158.62.55]] 17:46, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, I do not know how to format it, however this is the citation about painted vs protected bike lanes: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2214140523001056?dgcid=author [[User:Vdm|Vdm]] ([[User talk:Vdm|talk]]) 21:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, cities are much better place to live in without so many cars. But on the other hand, vacation without car is much more complicated, unless your idea of vacation is to get to exactly same place as everyone else. Soo ... where will all those cars go? I know, you could rent a car, but that only works if there wouldn't be times where EVERYONE suddenly needs car ... like, say, Christmas.

Also, no, bikes are not alternative to cars unless you can get shower when you arrive at work. Public transport could work, but bikes are just nice theory.

To conclude, I don't think trying to turn all cities into Amsterdam will work. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 22:07, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
: Bikes are an incredibly helpful and useful tool for getting around. You don't even have to turn a city into Amsterdam. I live in Edmonton, which is by no means an urbanist utopia, and even getting around here, combining a bicycle with public transit makes it so much easier and faster to get around. The issue I face is lugging my bike with me, in which case a bike share service like Montréal's BIXI would help out for getting around.
: Regarding your point on vacation, first of all, most people end up going to the same places for vacation anyway. And vacation without bringing a car can very much be done, and even at high-demand times, the places where "everyone needs a car" are places where everyone will be going anyway, at which point a train just makes more sense. About a decade ago, my family took a trip from New Delhi to Goa a decade back (around 1800 km away) and we took trains to get there. We rented a car to get around in Goa and it worked pretty well. Not saying that cars aren't useful at all, but they aren't a 100% necessity. They're most useful when you're heading somewhere that's out of the way, and I've done those sorts of trips too. [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

"...by allowing cyclists to cycle in the streets with the cars". ''Allowing''? Sorry, but that's a very neo-biker (or "person on a bike", rather than an actual cyclist) attitude that unfortunately seems to pervade the mindset of drivers. At least in the UK, bicycles have been 'allowed' (indeed, obliged) to ride upon the roads, as of laws as far back as [http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/72 1885] and are legitimate road vehicles and also not supposed to be ridden on actual pavements(/sidewalks) where not explicitly allowed. Of course, the US has policies driven (c.f. jaywalking). But a bicycle is a road vehicle. Add extra permissive routes (in the same manner as allowing traffic of less than three tonnes over a bridge, without forcing everything within that limit to do so) but you'd be wrong to suggest, over here, that you'd have to ''allow'' cyclists to cycle in(/on) the streets. Though the modern 'MAMILs' are often as wrong about all this (and as damaging to the reputation of real cyclists) as far too many motorists are. Of course, this may not reflect the US situation (or state/township legislations), but then they were influenced by the car-lobby to create the jaywalking 'crime' as well, so I really wouldn't be surprised. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.62|162.158.74.62]] 22:16, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I went to the Netherlands on vacation last month and I strongly identify with the guy waving flags and yelling "Netherlands! Netherlands! Netherlands!" in this comic. I was in Rotterdam, not Amsterdam, but I also spent a day in Enschede (near the border with Germany), and the sight was the same: bicycles everywhere, to a degree that would seem absurd anywhere else. I don't think it can be properly expressed in words; one look at the bicycle parking in Rotterdam Central Station and I was in awe that _so many bicycles_ could exist in one place. I used a bicycle to explore from The Haag to Neetle Jans and everywhere I went it was the same story; it isn't just Amsterdam, the entire country is built with bicycles as a solid and safe transportation option. --Faultline 11:32, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Speaking from the perspective of the UK, Cyclists (and I speak as one, with six decades of experience) are a complex issue. Being road vehicles (and requiring continuous at-grade surfaces, or at least smoothly transitioning slopes, whilst mounted) they need special consideration when laying out where they can go, outwith the baseline highway planning situation. And they also pose difficulties if improperly ridden in pedestrian areas, even if this is somehow due to being 'forced'(/’invited') off the roads by motorists and/or town planners that are in turn posing difficulties to them (legislatively, physically or just psychologically). In an ideal world, there would be no need for cycle lanes (on road), let alone cycle paths (split or shared pavement/sidewalk). And as it is not possible to have cycle-segregation everywhere (ignoring the question of whether forced segregation is a good policy!), I feel that attempting to take bicycles (or indeed other types of cycle!) off the road where it is easy and/or virtue-signalling makes the roads worse for cyclists ''everywhere else''. (And also the pavements worse for pedestrians, everywhere else!) 
There are (according to a quick check) 262,300 miles of paved road in the UK. Apart from the motorways (2,300 miles) and a smattering of other "no cycling" roads (often "motorway standard link roads" or major bridges), all of these are viable cycling routes. Maybe you'd not feel safe on some other routes (mostly a problem stemming from motorists, not the highways), so call it a cool quarter of a million miles. Compare with (again, a quick and unconfirmed check) the apparently 5,220 miles of traffic-free cycle paths (some 'cross country', bridleways/ex-railway/etc, others directly parallel to 'bike unfriendly/hostile/illegal' roadways) and 7,519 miles of on-road cycle lanes (paint and/or bollard-segregated, and I assume this includes bike+bus+taxi lanes and variations on that theme). Clearly, most places that you might want to cycle are not anywhere near covered by a convenient cycle-only(/dominant) path/road/lane/whatever. Even accounting for population density bias (a path-equipped city-centre ''can'' perhaps have a good few hundred thousand cyclists commuting along its copious off-street routes, whereas some remote area of equivalent road-length doesn't have more than a dozen people cycling around/through its country lanes on any given day), there's a distinct gap. 
And the problem is that car drivers (myself also being one, though only ''four'' decades behind the wheel, so what would I know?) seem to start to not anticipate bicycles on the road (or horses, or tractors, or anyone also driving but not actually going at-or-above the posted speed limit, etc) and at best they are startled/annoyed when they encounter their fellow road-users in different contexts. At worst, they 'come into contention' in a rather nasty way for at least one of the parties involved. 
'People on bikes' don't help when they (whether drivers themselves or not) do not obey [https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82 the rules of the road], and/or footway. They give actual cyclists a bad name, make motorists less tolerant of those who actually are folling both the rights and responsibilities of cycle traffic and cause 'contention' with pedestrians on ''their'' supposedly safer routes (and road crossings), amongst other issues. The number of times I've seen someone progress rapidly down a pavement on two wheels, having to swerve round people, swerve to cross side-roads (to use the disabled-friendly drop-curbs), hop onto the road and back on again because of obstructions (curb-mounted parked cars/construction works) and all disrupting (or even causing danger to everyone else off/on the road)... Quite often, they would have been quicker ''and safer'' to have just ridden on the road ''with'' the traffic (without earphones in, they'd also be much more aware so could overtake the slower traffic legally and in full consideration). 
Even worse, when there's a 'pavement biker' riding alongside a road ''with a clearly marked cycle lane'' on it. Road space reserved, but they're endangering pedestrians (and potentially themselves) needlessly. But, adding in the reckless pedestrians who do ''their'' dangerous things (walking up the central reservation of a dual-carriageway, e.g.), it just goes to show that there are unthinking individuals using every form of locomotion and travel (I could moan about thoughtless bus/train passengers, too, and don't get me started on illegal eScooters, motorbikes that may skirt the rules to some extent and possibly soms illegal variations of eBike as well). But, insofar as cycling, I'm not convinced that (partially) changing the road system to mitigate for bad drivers is really the best solution. It barely scratches that surface, it gets abused/ignored by those it may be intended for, it makes those it isn't intended for more resentful/inconsiderate as a push-back and the only obvious and tangible metric is in the press release that "Trumpton Town Council has been able to add five more miles of cyclepath..." (which probably consists of several short stretches of red tarmac is frequently intruded upon by pre-existing highway signage/lamp-posts and frequent "Cyclists Dismount" advisories, running alongside a perfectly ridable road just so long as they filled the wheel-/suspension-damaging potholes and swept the gutters once in a while). 
Can you tell that I've often thought about all these issues? I could go on, or into more detail, but I reckon I've already written far too much, uninvited. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.218|172.70.85.218]] 11:48, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

1759: British Map

2023-09-15T13:42:02Z

172.70.85.218: /* Transcript */ Geographically, there are no English mountains (though the Pennines, Lake District, etc, have notable 'peaks'). A lot of 'peak-worthy' bits of map also are too full of words to show any; clearly only drawn as both space and 'hills' exist.

{{comic
| number = 1759
| date = November 14, 2016
| title = British Map
| image = british_map.png
| titletext = West Norsussex is east of East Norwessex, but they're both far north of Middlesex and West Norwex.
}}

==Explanation==
This comic is a joke similar to [https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8&safe=active&ssui=on#q=how%20americans%20see%20the%20world&safe=active&ssui=on "How Americans see the world"] showing how the average American has opinions on the world, often including jokes such as a lack of {{w|Africa}}, etc. This has been used before in [[850: World According to Americans]]. The map also plays with the joke by noting it has been labeled by [[Randall Munroe|a specific American]] rather than "Americans".

Many areas of the UK are most familiar to foreigners thanks to their depiction in various fantasy novels and TV series. This map labels some of these, as well as including many silly names that simply sound like real British towns to an American ear. A protractor is shown off the coast of the {{w|Mull of Kintyre}} in reference to the "{{w|Mull of Kintyre test}}" - according to urban legend, the angle of the Mull defines the maximum allowed erectness for a man on films and home video releases in the UK.

Randall previously posted [https://blog.xkcd.com/2015/11/24/a-puzzle-for-the-uk/ a map of Great Britain] on his blog as part of the promotion for his book ''[[What If? (book)|What If?]]''. This map is from a very similar position and appears to have been traced from the same source, although there are some slight differences. Both maps include a sketch of {{w|Lake Windermere}} with boats on it, and both have the locations of London, Oxford and Cambridge labeled (the blog map also shows Edinburgh and Bristol - in this comic, these are labelled Eavestroughs and Minas Tirith). Both also contain references to {{w|Stonehenge}} and {{w|Watership Down}}.

Note that in British English, the correct spelling of “labeled” is ‘labelled’.

The title text plays around with the concept of the compass directions and how numerous regions (such as South "Sussex" and West "Wessex") incorporate such literal names in their description. Randall is creating similar sounding names which are nonsense-ish ("Norsussex" would be the region of the Northern-Southern Saxons), and placing them in relation to each other in ways which would be geographically implausible, similar to this [http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/92q3/xx19.html old joke about Boston]. However, in Germany there exists the region called ''Westphalia'' (''Westfalen''), and the eastern part of it is often referred to as ''East-Westphalia'' (''{{w|Ostwestfalen}}''), which sounds somewhat ridiculous. Part of the joke in the title text could be the fact that while three of the locations are fictional, {{w|Middlesex}} does actually exist.

{| border =1 width=100% cellpadding=5 class="wikitable sortable"
!Label on the map !! Explanation !! Actual location !! Notes
|-
| Helcaraxë
|| The "[http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Helcarax%C3%AB Grinding Ice]", an area of {{w|Middle-Earth}}. Like Helcaraxë, northern Scotland is cold, mountainous and in many areas inhospitable.
|| The {{w|Grampian}} region
||
|-
| Blick
|| Possibly referencing {{w|Wick, Caithness}}, one of the northernmost towns in Great Britain. The real Wick is substantially further north, off the edge of the map.
||Near {{w|Rhynie, Aberdeenshire}}
|| This is the name of a goblin in the movie "Legend" starring Tim Curry. Could also reference the art supply store, Blick Art Materials
|-
| Everdeen
|| {{w|Katniss Everdeen}} is the heroine of ''{{w|The Hunger Games}}'' series of novels and films
|| {{w|Aberdeen}}
|| In colloquial Scots, its pronunciation is very similar to "Everdeen."
|-
| Highlands
|| {{w|Scottish Highlands|No joke}}
|| {{w|Scottish Lowlands}}
|| Maybe deliberate trolling - Scots have strong feelings about where the Highland-Lowland border is
|-
| Norther Sea
|| Pun on the {{w|North Sea}} - i.e. a sea that is further north (or 'norther') than the North Sea.
|| {{w|Sea of the Hebrides}}
||
|-
| Loch Lomond
|| {{w|Loch Lomond|No joke}}
|| Loch Lomond
|| Loch Lomond is the largest lake in Great Britain, and the third largest lake in the UK. It is the subject of a well-known {{w|The_Bonnie_Banks_o%27_Loch_Lomond|traditional song}}, and was referenced in the "beaming" (teleporter) bit in the movie Spaceballs by the Scotty expy 'Snotty'. It also houses a distillery producing a whisky appreciated by Captain Haddock in ''{{w|The Adventures of Tintin}}''. Thanks to the {{w|Loch Ness Monster|monster}}, {{w|Loch Ness}} is by far the most famous Scottish loch, so naming the second most famous subverts expectations.
|-
| Fjordham
|| {{w|Fjords}} are glacial valleys. "-ham" is a common English placename suffix from Old English, related to the modern {{w|Hamlet (place)|hamlet}} ''or'' another root, such as that relating to river meadows, but [http://keithbriggs.info/EPN_maps/ham.pdf not so common] in the more obviously glacier-carved areas such as this area in Scotland. There are several villages (in England) named {{w|Fordham}}
|| Near {{w|Oban}} on the {{w|Firth of Lorn}}
|| The Scottish word "Firth" is related to "Fjord", although Lorn is not a fjord in the strict scientific sense - it was formed along the {{w|Great Glen Fault}} by tectonics, rather than glaciers
|-
| Glassdoor
|| {{w|Glassdoor}} is a website where employees can review their employers
|| {{w|Stirling}}
|| Although it's shown near Stirling, the reference seems to be to {{w|Glasgow}}
|-
| Eavestroughs
|| A dialectal word for {{w|rain gutter}}
|| {{w|Edinburgh}}
||
|-
| Seasedge
|| Procan's realm in ''Dungeons & Dragons''. "Sea sedge" is also one of many common names used for ''{{w|Acorus calamus}}'', the calamus or sweet flag.
|| Somewhere near the Scotland-England border
||
|-
| Chough
|| A {{w|Chough|species of bird in the crow family}}
|| The {{w|Scottish Borders}}
||
|-
| Meowth
|| {{w|Meowth}} is a cat-like Pokémon. Name may allude to {{w|Howth}}.
|| {{w|Ayr}}
||
|-
| Glutenfree
|| {{w|Gluten-free}} food lacks the protein {{w|gluten}}. This allows {{w|coeliac disease}} sufferers to enjoy it, but has also become a dietary fad in itself.
|| {{w|Cairnryan}}, {{w|Dumfries and Galloway}}
||
|-
| Blighton
|| A mashup of {{w|Brighton}} and {{w|Blighty}} Or a reference to {{w|Enid Blyton}}, a noted UK children’s author.
|| The {{w|Scottish Borders}}
|| The real Brighton is much further south, on the south coast.
|-
| North Sea
|| {{w|North Sea|No joke}}
|| North Sea
||
|-
| Eyemouth
|| {{w|Eyemouth|No joke}}
|| near {{w|Newcastle-upon-Tyne}}
|| The real Eyemouth is further north, where "Seasedge" is marked on the map.
|-
| Earhand
|| A pun on Eyemouth
|| {{w|Carlisle}}
||
|-
| Hairskull
|| A pun on Eyemouth
|| {{w|Teesside}}
||
|-
| Belfast DeVoe
|| {{w|Belfast}}, capital of Northern Ireland, mashed up with the rock band {{w|Bell Biv DeVoe}}
|| {{w|Belfast}}
||
|-
| Lakebottom
|| The {{w|Lake District}}. "-bottom" is a common placename across Northern England, and refers to a town in a valley.
|| {{w|Lake District}}
|| Below Lakebottom is a sketch of a lake with yachts on it. This is illustrative and doesn't correspond to any of the actual lakes which would be barely visible on this map. There are 16 'lakes' in the Lake District, but only one ({{w|Bassenthwaite Lake}}) actually has 'lake' in its name.
|-
| Braintree
|| {{w|Braintree, Essex|Not a joke}}
|| {{w|North Yorkshire}}
|| The real Braintree is much further south, near where "Paulblart" is on the map. Also a possible reference to the [https://www.braintreepayments.com Braintree] online payments platform (widely advertised on podcasts), or a stop at the end of the Red Line in Boston.
|-
| Skinflower
|| A pun on Braintree
|| {{w|Yorkshire Dales}}
||
|-
| Bjork
|| {{w|Björk}} is an Icelandic singer
|| {{w|East Riding of Yorkshire}}
|| The reference is presumably to York (historically known as Jórvík), although it's a bit too far east.
|-
| Weedle
|| {{w|Weedle}} is a Pokémon
|| {{w|Forest of Bowland}}
|| In the original Pokémon Red and Blue games Weedle is most notably found in '{{w|Viridian Forest}}' which - like the real-life Forest of Bowland - is known for its diverse wildlife.
|-
| Eeugh
|| An expression of disgust
|| {{w|Kingston-upon-Hull}} (generally just "Hull")
|| Pronounced 'ull by locals
|-
| Crewneck
|| A shirt with a {{w|Crewneck|simple round collar}}.
|| {{w|Blackpool}}
|| There is a town called {{w|Crewe}} somewhat further south than shown in Cheshire.
|-
| Paisley
|| {{w|Paisley, Renfrewshire|No joke}}. It sounds funny to Americans because it's associated with {{w|Paisley (design)|paisley}} fabric, a Persian-style print invented in the town. Possibly a pun on {{w|Parsley|parsley}}, a herb.
|| {{w|Burnley}}
|| The real Paisley is in Scotland, near Glasgow.
|-
| Basil
|| Also {{w|Basil|a herb}}, and {{w|Basil Fawlty|one of the most famous British TV characters}}.
|| {{w|Scunthorpe}}
||
|-
| Aidenn
|| An apparent pun on the {{w|Scouse}} accent: {{w|h-dropping}} and {{w|th-stopping}} mean the common "hey, then" would be pronounced "ai denn".
|| {{w|Merseyside}}
||
|-
| Hillfolk
|| {{w|Hillfolk}} is an RPG. "-hill" (referring to, well, a hill) is common in British placenames, and "-folk" (referring to a tribe or culture) is seen in ''Suffolk'' and ''Norfolk''. Possibly also a reference to {{w|Hobbits}}, a race of little people that live under hills in The Lord of the Rings.
|| {{w|Manchester}}
|| Manchester's name does in fact reference hills: it means "castle on the {{w|breast-shaped hill}}"
|-
| Waterdown
|| To "water something down" is to weaken it. "-down" is common in British placenames and refers to {{w|Downland|chalk hills}}. Possibly a contraction from the book and movie: Watership Down.
|| Near {{w|Grimsby}}
||
|-
| Dubstep
|| {{w|Dubstep}} is a genre of electronic music with a heavy bass line.
|| {{w|Dublin}}
|| Dublin is the only non-UK settlement in the map, and one of two on the island of Ireland.
|-
| Borough-upon-Mappe
|| By being recorded here, this is literally a borough upon a map. The "-upon-" is a common element of placenames for towns on rivers, although there's no River Mappe. Possibly referencing the fact that the town is on a "mappe" (map)?
|| {{w|Lincolnshire Wolds}}
||
|-
| Fhqwhgads
|| "[http://www.hrwiki.org/wiki/Fhqwhgads Fhqwhgads]" is a joke from the Homestar Runner internet cartoon. In the cartoon, the main character read a fanmail that was signed only with a random keyboard mash of characters, which Strong Bad shortened to "Fhqwhgads," a name that became a running gag on the cartoon.
|| {{w|Wrexham}}
|| This is near the Welsh border; Welsh names often look like a mish-mash of consonants to English speakers ignorant of Welsh orthography; within a few miles of Wrexham are towns like {{w|Yr Wyddgrug}} ("Mold" in English), {{w|Cefn-y-bedd}}, {{w|Gwernymynydd}} and {{w|Llanarmon Dyffryn Ceiriog}}.
|-
| Cadbury
|| {{w|Cadbury}} is a British chocolate company.
|| Near {{w|Boston, Lincolnshire}}
|| Cadbury actually built a town for its workers... but it's called {{w|Bournville}}. There are several towns called {{w|Cadbury_(disambiguation)#Places|Cadbury}} in the UK (where the Cadbury family presumably got its name), but none are near here.
|-
| Cabinetry
|| The art of making {{w|cabinets}}.
|| Near {{w|Oswestry}}
||Several towns in the English Midlands have names ending in -try, including Oswestry. "Cabinetry" could be a pun on {{w|Coventry}}, which lies further to the east.
|-
| The Shire
|| {{w|Shire (Middle-earth)|The Shire}} is home to the {{w|Hobbits}} in {{w|Middle-Earth}}
|| {{w|Midlands}}
|| Tolkien drew inspiration for the Shire from the {{w|West Midlands (region)|West Midlands}}, although Tolkien was from the southern part of the Midlands (roughly where Dampshire is on the map).
An internet posting titled [http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/revocation.asp "A Letter to the U.S" after the 2016 Presidential Election"], falsely attributed to John Cleese, could also have been inspiration for this map. It in particular says: "3. You should learn to distinguish English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard. English accents are not limited to cockney, upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier). Scottish dramas such as 'Taggart' will no longer be broadcast with subtitles.You must learn that there is no such place as Devonshire in England. The name of the county is "Devon." If you persist in calling it Devonshire, all American States will become "shires" e.g. Texasshire Floridashire, Louisianashire."
|-
| Landmouth
|| Literal description
|| {{w|The Wash}}
||
|-
| Brandon
|| {{w|Brandon#United Kingdom|Not a joke}}
|| {{w|The Fens}}
|| There are several Brandons in the UK, the nearest being where "Keebler" is on the map. The area shown is borderline-uninhabitable, as it is marshland and lies mostly below sea-level. Only a few farms and isolated hamlets exist here.
|-
| Hamwich
|| A ham sandwich. Both "-ham" and "-wich" are common generic placenames. The village called simply "Ham" and the other called "Sandwich" are fairly close to each other, with a famous roadsign that points to "Ham Sandwich" between them. The bread-slices-and-filling foodstuff is named for the 4th Earl of Sandwich, and hence ultimately from the town of the same name.
|| {{w|Norwich}}
|| Likely to be coincidence but the "Cheese Hamwich" is a breaded cheese and turkey food product sold by {{w|Bernard Matthews Ltd}} whose food processing facility is based not far from this map location.
|-
| West Norsussex
|| Mash-up of {{w|West Sussex}} ("South Saxons") with the obsolete {{w|Wessex}} ("West Saxons") and never extant {{w|Norsex}} ("North Saxons")
|| {{w|Midlands}}
||
|-
| Redsox
|| The {{w|Boston Red Sox}} are a baseball team
|| {{w|The Fens}}
|| The Boston Red Sox play at Fenway Park. The map location is not far from the British {{w|Boston, Lincolnshire|Boston}}
|-
| Keebler
|| The {{w|Keebler Elves}} advertise cookies in the US
|| {{w|Elveden}}
|| The name of this village in Thetford Forest means "valley of the elves".
|-
| Bloughshire
|| Most British counties have "-shire" in their name. Originally it meant they were administered by a {{w|sheriff}}. However, they are usually no longer known by those names in Wales.
|| {{w|Powys}}
||
|-
| Lionsgate
|| {{w|Lionsgate|A film studio}}
|| {{w|Leicester}}
|| The word/suffix "-gate" in placenames often refer to {{w|Harrogate|ancient streets or roads}}, or possibly such a way through a gap that is natural (e.g. {{w|Ramsgate}}'s cliffs) or in a city wall (which can thus be sealed, or 'gated'). There are no obvious inspirations for Lionsgate in that part of the country &emdash; ''Ram''sgate, in particular, is at the extreme eastern end of the southern edge of the UK.
|-
| Kingsbottom
|| Another "-bottom". A possible reference to {{w|King's Landing}}, the capital of the Seven Kingdoms of {{w|Westeros}} and one of its districts Fleabottom.
|| {{w|Suffolk Coast National Nature Reserve|Suffolk Coast}}
|| Possibly named for the town of {{w|King's Lynn}}, also located in East Anglia but close to its north coast.
|-
| Aberforth
|| {{w|Aberforth Dumbledore}} is {{w|Albus Dumbledore}}'s brother in the ''Harry Potter'' series. The name is sometimes translated as "from the river", but without any etymological references. "Aber" is Welsh for a "river mouth" or estuary, and is widespread in Wales, and occasionally found due to Celtic influence in other parts of the UK (such as {{w|Aberdeen}}).
|| {{w|Aberystwyth}}
|| {{w|Aberporth}} ("Mouth [of the] port" - the Welsh equivalent of the English name Portsmouth) is a real town located a little further southwest along the Welsh coast. {{w|Forth}} may be a reference to the {{w|Firth of Forth}} in Scotland, where "Firth" means estuary or fjord, and "Forth" is thought to mean "the open air". Aberforth would literally mean "the mouth of the river Forth", which is the location of {{w|Edinburgh}} in Scotland. Alternatively, "forth" in Welsh could be a soft mutated form of the Welsh name "{{w|Borth}}" (the name of a town - but not a river - a little further north along the coast), which is itself a soft mutated form of the word "porth" meaning port.
|-
| South Norwessex
|| Another mash-up of {{w|Sussex}} ("South Saxons") with the obsolete {{w|Wessex}} ("West Saxons") and never extant {{w|Norsex}} ("North Saxons"). Also southwest of West Norsussex.
|| {{w|Birmingham}}
||
|-
| Dryford
|| Would refer to a river crossing without water. "{{w|Ford (crossing)|-ford}}" is a common placename element.
|| {{w|Shropshire Hills}}
||
|-
| Frampton
|| There are many {{w|Frampton}}s in the UK. It means "town on the river Frome" - and there are also several {{w|River Frome}}s. The name is famous thanks to rock musician {{w|Peter Frampton}}
|| {{w|Bury St Edmunds}}
||see also "Southframpton"
|-
| Cambridge
|| {{w|Cambridge|No joke}}
|| {{w|Cambridge}}
|| Cambridge and Oxford, the two most prestigious university towns, are correctly marked. Together, they form {{w|Oxbridge}}
|-
| Kingsfriend
|| Possibly a joke about the royal patronage given to certain towns - for instance, {{w|Bognor Regis}} and {{w|Royal Wootton Bassett}}. Also {{w|Knighton, Powys|Knighton}} (a King's friend?) is very close to this locale, and so is {{w|Kington, Herefordshire|Kington}}.
|| Near the England-Wales border
||
|-
| Cair Paravel
|| {{w|Cair Paravel}} is the castle where the ruler of {{w|Narnia}} lives in the ''Narnia'' series.
|| {{w|Dedham Vale}}
||
|-
| Camelot
|| {{w|Camelot}} was (in legend) {{w|King Arthur}}'s court.
|| Near the England-Wales border
|| The King Arthur myth did in fact originate in the Welsh culture. However, most sites associated with Camelot, such as {{w|Winchester}}, {{w|Glastonbury}} and {{w|Cadbury Castle}}, are in England.
|-
| Nothingham
|| A pun on {{w|Nottingham}}, famous for {{w|Sherwood Forest}}, the legendary home of {{w|Robin Hood}}.
|| Near {{w|Northampton}}
||
|-
| Cumberbatch
|| A surname, best known as that of actor {{w|Benedict Cumberbatch}}.
|| {{w|Harlow}}
|| The surname of a famous actress is replaced with that of a famous actor
|-
| Dampshire
|| A pun on the county of {{w|Hampshire}}. Generically a joking reference to any county, particularly of the {{w|West Country}}, to imply it is particularly prone to rain.
|| Gloucestershire
||
|-
| The CW
|| {{w|The CW|An American TV channel}}.
|| {{w|Pembrokeshire}}
|| Presumably the placement is a reference to Welsh words such as "cwm" which use W as a vowel.
|-
| Whaling
|| The practice of hunting whales. May be a reference to other -ing towns like {{w|Reading, Berkshire|Reading}} (which is actually pronounced "redding", not "reeding"), and also to its location in Wales.
|| {{w|Merthyr Tydfil}}
||
|-
| Paulblart
|| ''{{w|Paul Blart: Mall Cop}}'' is a 2009 comedy film starring Kevin James
|| Near {{w|Chelmsford}}
|| Possibly a humorous contrast with Cumberbatch above, a highbrow British classical actor followed by a lowbrow American movie character.
|-
| Oxford
|| {{w|Oxford|No joke}}
|| {{w|Oxford}}
|| See Cambridge. Surprisingly, Randall made no attempt to troll readers by switching the locations of Cambridge and Oxford. Or he did, but ironically from the wrong 'correct' assumption!
|-
| Moorhen
|| The {{w|moorhen}} is a waterfowl.
|| {{w|Gower Peninsula}}
|| Possibly punning on nearby {{w|Swansea}}.
|-
| Cardigan
|| {{w|Cardigan, Ceredigion|No joke}} - it seems funny to Americans because of the {{w|Cardigan (sweater)|knitted sweater}} popularised by the {{w|James Brudenell, 7th Earl of Cardigan|Earl of Cardigan}}
|| {{w|Newport, Wales}}
|| The actual Cardigan is on the west coast. The name may be punning on the city of {{w|Cardiff}}, capital of Wales, which is further south-west.
|-
| BBC Channel 4
|| A composite of {{w|Channel 4}} and the {{w|BBC}} (UK TV operators) confusing the meaning of TV channel with a geographic channel. There ''is'' a {{w|BBC Four}} (digital TV channel) ''and'' a {{w|BBC Radio 4}} (FM and digital radio) with an {{w|BBC Radio 4 Extra|adoptive daughter-station}} (digital only, originally called BBC7), but none of these are ever really called "BBC Channel 4" by locals, and it is hard to say what detail 'an American' might ''think'' he knows.
|| {{w|Bristol Channel}}
||
|-
| London
|| By virtue of being the capital and largest city, as well as a famous {{w|world city}}, London is one of the few cities in Britain that anyone, no matter how ignorant of British geography, can manage to name correctly.
|| London
|| It is not unknown for foreigners ''and'' British alike (even some residents of London) to assume that London has a more central location in England (such as {{w|Midlands|'The Midlands'}}) or {{w|Britannia Inferior|even further towards the north}}. Randall seems to be more knowledgable than this.
|-
| GMT
|| A reference to {{w|Greenwich Mean Time}}. Shown on the map near the London bourough of Greenwich through which the GMT meridian passes.
|| {{w|Greenwich}} (roughly)
||
|-
| Corbyn
|| A reference to the leader (at the time of publication) of the UK {{w|Labour Party (UK)|Labour Party}} {{w|Jeremy Corbyn}}.
|| {{w|The Cotswolds}}
|| May be a confusion with the town of {{w|Corby}} although it is not near the location shown.
|-
| Tems-upon-Thames
|| A joke about the counter-intuitive pronunciation of {{w|Thames}}.
|| {{w|Rochester}}
||
|-
| Minas Tirith
|| {{w|Minas Tirith}} is the capital of Gondor in ''Lord of the Rings'' and is built on the side of a mountain.
|| {{w|Bristol}}
|| Clifton Village, in Bristol, is built on the side of the Avon Gorge so could be compared to {{w|Minas Tirith}}. Nearby {{w|Cheddar Gorge}} is famous for its steep cliffs that resemble the landscape from Lord of the Rings.
|-
| Hogsmeade
|| {{w|Hogsmeade}} is the nearest village to Hogwarts in the ''Harry Potter'' books.
|| {{w|Dover}}
|| The fictional Hogsmeade was in Scotland. Randall shows the {{w|Channel Tunnel}} running from there, a possible reference to Hogsmeade's secret connections to Hogwarts.
|-
| Tubemap
|| The {{w|Tube Map}} is the map of the {{w|London Underground}}, widely considered a masterpiece of design.
|| {{w|Outer London}}
||
|-
| Cambnewton
|| {{w|Cam Newton}} is quarterback for the {{w|Carolina Panthers}}. "Cam-" is common for placenames on any of the several British rivers called "{{w|Cam River|Cam}}", while "Newton" means "new town". Also possibly a pun on Camden Town, a touristic district in North London, although not its actual location on the map.
|| {{w|West Country}}
||
|-
| Efrafa
|| Efrafa is a rabbit warren in the story ''{{w|Watership Down}}''.
|| {{w|Chidden}}
|| According to the story, the warren is located roughly here - the real {{w|Watership Down, Hampshire|Watership Down}} is in Hampshire.
|-
| Chansey
|| {{w|Chansey|Another Pokémon}}. "-sey" is a common suffix meaning "island".
|| {{w|Dungeness (headland|Dungeness}}
||
|-
| Oughghough
|| Playing on common place name elements, "oughghough" has no clear pronunciation under the rules of English. It could be "Uff-guff", "Oo-gow", "Uh-guh" or any combination of these sounds. The name looks similar to the real {{w|Loughborough}} ("Luff-bruh")
|| {{w|Barnstaple}}
|| Legend has it that Loughborough was once pronounced 'Loogabarooga' by a visiting Australian.
|-
| Sundial
|| A {{w|sundial}} is a clock using a shadow to tell the time.
|| {{w|Wiltshire}}
|| The location roughly corresponds with {{w|Stonehenge}}, an ancient stone circle that was likely used to track the sun (though as a ritual calendar, rather than a clock)
|-
| Dobby
|| {{w|Magical_creatures_in_Harry_Potter#Dobby|Dobby}} is a character in {{w|Harry Potter}}.
|| {{w|Southampton}}
|| Similar to {{w|Derby}}.
|-
| Lower Bottom
|| Another -bottom. Also a redundancy, as the "bottom" is the lowest place by definition.
|| {{w|Devon}}
||
|-
| Southframpton
|| A confusion with {{w|Southampton}} which is nearby the location shown. The use of the postfix "frampton" is a reference to the "Frampton" elsewhere on the map, just as Southampton is distinguished from {{w|Northampton}}.
|| {{w|Milford on Sea}}
|| Frampton happens to be a common surname in the area.
|-
| Blandford
|| {{w|Blandford|No joke}}
|| {{w|Cornwall}}
|| The real Blandford is a bit further east, in Dorset, roughly under the m in 'Southframpton'.
|-
| Menthol
|| {{w|Menthol}} is a chemical with minty taste that produces a cooling sensation, and is used in mints and flavoured cigarettes.
|| {{w|Eastbourne}}
|| Possibly a reference to Methil in Fife (but possibly not).
|-
| West Sea
|| Literal description.
|| {{w|Atlantic Ocean}}
|| Historically, this was the name for the ocean off the UK's west coast. According to the {{w|Shipping Forecast#Region names|list of sea areas}} used in the UK's {{w|Shipping Forecast}}, that region of sea is called "Lundy"
|-
| Tarp
|| Tarp, short for {{w|tarpaulin}}, is a waterproof sheet for storage and weather protection.
|| {{w|Teignmouth}}
||
|-
| Longbit
|| Literal description.
|| {{w|Cornwall}}
||
|}

==Transcript==

:[A black-and-white map of Great Britain. The detail on the map is minimal, showing mainly the outlines of the land, chevrons representing otherwise sparse areas of high hills or mountains, and points representing cities. The only other features are a small drawing of a protractor south of one peninsula, and a lake with two small sailboats on the west side of the largest landmass. The caption in the upper-right states in large letters "A BRITISH MAP," then in smaller letters underneath, "LABELED BY AN AMERICAN." Most of the map's area is covered by labels for various features, which are listed below.]

<nowiki>
[In Scotland, from north to south:]
Helcaraxë
Blick
Everdeen
Norther Sea (to the west)
Highlands
Loch Lomond
Fjordham
Glassdoor
Eavestroughs
Seasedge
Meowth
Chough
Blighton
Glutenfree

[In England, from north to south:]
Eyemouth
Earhand
Hairskull
Lakebottom
Braintree
Skinflower
Weedle
Bjork
Crewneck
Paisley
Eeugh
Aidenn
Basil
Hillfolk
Waterdown
Borough-Upon-Mappe
Cadbury
Landmouth (to the East)
The Shire
West Norsussex
Redsox
Hamwich
Lionsgate
Keebler
South Norwessex
Kingsbottom
Cambridge
Frampton
Nothingham
Cair Paravel
Dampshire
Cumberbatch
Oxford
Paulblart
Corbyn
London
GMT
BBC Channel 4 (to the West)
Minas Tirith
Tems-Upon-Thames
Tubemap
Hogsmeade
Cambnewton
Oughghough
Efrafa
Chansey
Sundial
Lower Bottom
Dobby
Menthol
West Sea (to the West)
Blandford
Southframpton
Tarp
Longbit

[In Wales, from north to south:]
Fhqwhgads
Cabinetry
Bloughshire
Aberforth
Dryford
Kingsfriend
Camelot
The CW
Whaling
Moorhen
Cardigan

[In Northern Ireland:]
Belfast Devoe

[In the Republic of Ireland:]
Dubstep
</nowiki>

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Maps]]
[[Category:Harry Potter]]
[[Category:Chronicles of Narnia]]
[[Category:Fiction]]

2816: Types of Solar Eclipse

2023-08-16T21:46:41Z

172.70.85.218: /* Explanation */ First tweaks, to reality elements, plus readding an adjustment to the "hug" that got lost in the prior Edit Conflict

{{comic
| number = 2816
| date = August 16, 2023
| title = Types of Solar Eclipse
| image = types_of_solar_eclipse_2x.png
| imagesize = 501x572px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = The best place to be for a hug eclipse is a scenic natural area with good views and few clouds. The worst place to be is the lunar surface.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by a DARK SHADOW OF A DRAGONITE THAT PERIODICALLY EATS THE SUN - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

There are various different types of {{w|solar eclipse}}. The comic purports to show and names a number of them, initially quite real and accurate before heading into traditional xkcd fantasticality.

The punchline is where he likens an eclipse to a 'hug' of the Moon by the Sun. This is of course, not practically possible.{{citation needed}} The Sun is 93 million miles or 150 million kilometers away from the Moon. Even if it was somehow moved towards touching distance by advanced sci-fi tech or a terrible disaster, the Moon would vaporize on contact with the Sun's plasma, thus not allowing for any sort of hug. In fact, we would not live very long if this happened, as the Earth would be baked by the Sun's light, then swallowed by its intense gravity.

In the title text, the hug eclipse is mentioned again, this time in regards to where the best location to be would be. First, normal advice is given about how the best way to view the eclipse would be in a scenic and natural area with few clouds. Then he mentions that the lunar surface would be the worst place to go in a solar hug - as it would be blasted with thousands of degrees of heat from the sun.

{| class="wikitable"
!Label
!Image
!Description
|-
|Partial
|Sun partly obscured by an offset occlusion
|Whenever the Moon does not totally line up with the Sun (for any or all observers), the 'shadow' will not cross the centre of the Sun. The parts of a full eclipse before second contact and and after third contact are also described as partial phases of the eclipsing event.
|-
|Total
|Sun entirely obscured by a slightly larger concentric occlusion
|When the Moon is close to perigee (or assisted by the Earth being at aphelion) during an eclipse, the Moon's apparent size is slightly larger than that of the Sun and will cover the whole solar disc. This is an astronomically useful effect, as well as aesthetically interesting to look at, as observers can study solar prominsnces and the atmosphere of the Sun while not being blinded by the glare of the bright 'surface' of the star.
|-
|Annular
|Sun partly obscured by a slightly smaller concentric occlusion
|With the Moon nearer its apogee (and/or the Earth at perihelion), the Sun instead has a larger angular size than the Moon and will not be totally covered even by the most central alignment of each body.
An eclipse can also be called "hybrid" (not illustrated in the diagram), by being seen as both Total and Annular by different observers. Those viewing at more extreme latitudes or more westerly/easterly (the eclipse being closer to dawn and dusk, local time) are viewing both Moon and Sun from slightly further away around the curve of the planet and so make the nearer Moon decreases in angular size proportionately greater than the much more distant Sun and so see annularity for the same eclipse for which others see totallity.
|-
|Oblate
|Oval Sun obscured by a concentric circle, except for at the edges of its major axis
|.
|-
|Interior
|Sun obscured at its edge by a thick ring, leaving its centre visible
|.
|-
|Cuboid
|Sun obscured by a square cross-section
|.
|-
|Transverse
|Obscuring circle drawn as a perpendicular plane intersecting the Sun on a centre-line
|.
|-
|Saturnian
|Obscuring circle is given an oblique (shadow) ring system
|.
|-
|Hug
|Obscuring shape is pinched over at both sides by the respective overlapping edges of the Sun
|.
|}

In all these images, the solar disc does not actually have a solid Moon in front of it, but a semi-transparent shadow, more typical of the representation of the Earth's solar shadow as it passes across the face of the Moon in a {{w|lunar eclipse}}. This may be an additional part of the humour.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics with color]]
[[Category:Astronomy]]

Talk:2814: Perseids Pronunciation

2023-08-13T09:58:36Z

172.70.85.218: Mention there will be regional variations.

I'm afraid to google the Kentucky Meat Shower. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.158.139|162.158.158.139]] 14:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
:I can give you a very quick summary: when startled, vultures will sometimes regurgitate their last meal, both to lighten themselves for a quick escape, and make a potential predator lose its appetite. Apparently, something startled a bunch of vultures at the same time, and nobody knows exactly what. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.247.42|172.69.247.42]] 14:55, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_meat_shower [[User:Shamino|Shamino]] ([[User talk:Shamino|talk]]) 14:59, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

"can" is repeated in the title text. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.68.54|141.101.68.54]] 14:53, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

On August 11, 2023, XKCD was not the only web comic to reference the "Kentucky Meat Shower". It is the full subject of the day's Dinosaur Comics, at http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=4085. And August 11 is not even an anniversary of the event (March 3, 1876). Coincidence? Time travel? You be the judge. [[User:JohnB|JohnB]] ([[User talk:JohnB|talk]]) 15:32, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

This tells me neither how acceptable things like my default lazy pronunciation, nor the original ancient greek pronunciation of its namesake, are considered. How am I supposed to guess where combinations of variations like PEER-, -seh-, and -ides would affect placement in the list? [[Special:Contributions/172.71.142.35|172.71.142.35]] 19:12, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

It's not ''wrong'', per-se. (ed.)
[[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 21:40, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
:That's exactly how I pronounce it. (per se) + ids. per-say-ids. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.4.168|172.68.4.168]] 10:04, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

*PER-see-ids: standard(ish, YMMV) 3-syllable verson of the word.
*PURSE-yids: standardish 2-(/2.5-)syllable version.
*Per-SEE-ids: yeah, I'd accept that emphisis, in a pinch.
*Per-SAY-ids: ok, so you like ''that'' version of the 'ei' digraph; might even be 'classical'.
*Per-SIDES: Germanic digraph and irregular (in this case) phomeme boundries, but each to their own.
*Per-ZAY-uds: I can see most of this, accent permitting; the '<schwa>ds' is a surprising twist.
*PER-suds: you dont care about the digraph at all, do you?
*Perky-ids: Back-formed through "C/S equivalence", I'm guessing, but from the wrong s(e)ide?
*Pewpewpews: Onomatopœia!!!
*Per-say-say: Bowdlerised, as if the original is a 'naughty' word.
*Percies: Shortened through familiarity.
*Purps: Shortened/perhaps linked to "perp(etrator)s".
*Pepsids: Sponsorship! (Did we also get the "Dracokids", 6-10 Oct?)
*Peeps: Anthopomorphised, the lot of 'em!
...my first thoughts, but I'm sure there are competing claims so I'll leave this down here for the time being. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.47|162.158.74.47]] 23:28, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

The list in the Explanation's table was missing most of them, and the Transcript separated the two-word entries into separate entries! Fixed all that. Filled in my analyses of the missing pronunciations, I'm sure others can flesh them out better, add relevant links as I couldn't be bothered to both think of th8ngs to link and figure out the best way to link them (and make the multi-entry rows look proper). Also, someone severely misunderstood what "Peeps" would mean, it seems clearly to be the slang for "people". The goofy entries seemed to require separate descriptions, so I left them as separate rows as the cleanest/clearest layout I can think of for that, with the rudimentary understanding of Wiki tables I could glean from what was already there. :) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 06:46, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
:I'm convinced it's "Percies" and "Purps" and "Pepsids" and "Peeps", at the end, not "Percies Purps" and "Pepsids Peeps". Just arrayed in two columns as they're shortened enough to make it an unasethetic layout to extend by two rows and add so much gap at the end of four lines. "Pewpewpews" aside, none of the others more than double the "p"s from the original single one. It can be forgiven to bookend a short phoneme (Purps, Peeps), but sounds off to revisit the pattern (twice!) in this manner, with no clear connection between paired elements. Just my own observation, though. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.46|162.158.74.46]] 20:22, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
::I know! Look at the size of the spacing between the left and right elements - those aren't two-word terms, no way.

::I can see how an at-a-glance read might come up with "Pepsids Peeps" and "Percies Perps"...but at-a-glance reading seems a little out of place on an analytical forum!

::Those are four seperate names.[[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 07:35, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the "Pepsids Peeps" is a reference to the Pepsi x Peeps soda that got released a few months ago—the first word could be a cross between PEPSI and perseiDS. Presumably, they are very sugary meteors. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.150.46|172.68.150.46]] 12:00, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Is someone familiar with the phonetic notation system used in the comic able to convert it to something more generally acceptable like IPA? [[User:Tharkon|Tharkon]] ([[User talk:Tharkon|talk]]) 17:14, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

: It's "informal", and seems to be similar to the wikipedia one. [[Special:Contributions/198.41.238.54|198.41.238.54]] 01:50, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
No "per-seed"? I once heard a newscaster say it that way. [[User:SDSpivey|SDSpivey]] ([[User talk:SDSpivey|talk]]) 18:38, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
:I heard a BBC newsreader say "PER-sid" yesterday. As though it were a compound of "perse" and "id".[[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 07:41, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Why not "per-sayds"? [[Special:Contributions/198.41.238.54|198.41.238.54]] 01:50, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

It seems likely to me this is going to be regional. I was always taught "Per-SAY-ids" to be correct (EN-GB). I've never heard anyone say "PER-see-ids" or "PURSE-yids". [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.218|172.70.85.218]] 09:58, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

1849: Decades

2023-06-16T17:15:10Z

172.70.85.218: /* Explanation */ Because the comic does it the lazy way.

{{comic
| number = 1849
| date = June 12, 2017
| title = Decades
| image = decades.png
| titletext = In the 90s, our variety radio station used the tagline "the best music of the 70s, 80s, and 90s." After 2000, they switched to "the best music of the 80s, 90s, and today." I figured they'd change again in 2010, but it's 2017 and they're still saying "80s, 90s, and today." I hope radio survives long enough for us to find out how they deal with the 2020s.
}}

==Explanation==
From the 1960s to the 1990s, it was common to group eras by decades. Fashion, music, and other cultural trends that changed relatively quickly were often defined by those decades. People casually and commonly referred to "the sixties", and so on, to separate these periods.

This pattern broke down after 1999, because it didn't naturally lend itself to an analogous phrase for the year from 2000-2009. A number of different terms have been proposed and used: "the {{w|Aughts}}", and "the naughties" had been used for 1900-1909, but have an archaic flavor that never really caught on. "The "{{w|2000s}}" and "the millenium" are ambiguous and clunky. None of these terms ever became popular enough to become a consensus term. Similarly for the period from 2010-2019, terms like "the 2010s" and "the teens" have been used, but not widely accepted.

The practical upshot of all of this is that verbally splitting time periods into clear decades simply became less obvious for the periods since 2000. While people still refer to earlier time periods by decades, it is far less common to do so when referring to recent years. The roll-over text gives the example that we still refer to "music of the '80s and '90s" (although the comic omits the apostrophes that might normally indicate the missing century digits), but rarely refer to "music of the 2000s" or something similar.

The time-line in the comic stretches into the future (as of the time of publication), and uses question marks to present uncertainty over whether the decade-grouping trend will return in the 2020s. On the one hand, such was a well-established custom, and we once again have clear language for it. On the other hand, after largely abandoning the custom for 20 years, it is far from certain that people will adopt it again.

What isn't mentioned in the comic, but may be relevant, is that, in the absence of those decade categories, it has become more common to refer to time periods and the people who grew up in them by somewhat arbitrary generational categories: Baby Boomers, Generation X, Millenials, Gen Z, and so on. This has provided an adequate substitute, since youth culture in the 2000s and 2010s has been more commonly defined as {{w|Millennials#Cultural_identity|millennial culture}}". There are drawbacks to this (both because the terms are more loosely defined, and because they often come with negative connotations), but these trends may have become sufficiently ingrained that they could displace the older decade-based divisions.

The title text gives the specific example of [[Randall]]'s local radio station dividing music by decades, and points out they simply started talking around the decades from 2000 to 2019. He implies that whether they resume this pattern in the 2020s will be a good indicator of whether this speech pattern will resume, but expressed doubt whether radio will last long enough to find out. This is a jab at the radio industry, which has been in decline for a long time as it has faced increasing competition from other communications technologies. While it is unlikely that the radio industry will cease to exist in the near future, further decline seems probable.

Twenties were discussed again later in [[2249: I Love the 20s]].

==Transcript==
:[A timeline across the top of the box marks decades from 1960 to 2030, the labels are above the line and the ticks marking each decade are below.]

:[Label: 1960]
:60s Music; 60s Fashion; 60s Movies; 60s Culture

:[Label: 1970]
:70s Music; 70s Fashion; 70s Movies; 70s Culture

:[Label: 1980]
:80s Music; 80s Fashion; 80s Movies; 80s Culture

:[Label: 1990]
:90s Music; 90s Fashion; 90s Movies; 90s Culture

:[Label: 2000 and 2010]
:[Items grouped over two decades.]
:Fashion; Culture; Music; Movies

:[Label: 2020]
:[The text is in light grey font.]
:20s Music?; 20s Fashion?; 20s Movies?; 20s Culture?

:[Label: 2030]

:[Caption below the panel:]
:It's weird how for 20 years we stopped grouping our cultural memories by decade because "2000s" is ambiguous and and "Aughts" and "Teens" never really stuck.

==Trivia==
*Randall has by mistake, written "and and aughts" in the caption for this comic, instead of "and aughts".

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Timelines]]
[[Category:Time]]
[[Category:Music]]
[[Category:Language]]

48: Found

2023-05-22T18:41:25Z

172.70.85.218: /* Explanation */ Perhaps a maze, perhaps a nebulously alien landscape. As the transcript has nothing useful to say about what it 'represents', probably not valid to be so certain here.

{{comic
| number = 48
| date = January 12, 2006
| title = Found
| image = found.jpg
| titletext = No more, no less
}}

==Explanation==
[[Cueball]] and [[Megan]] are standing together in the middle of a strangely expressionist landscape/environment. As indicated by the words in the comic, they have simply '''found''' each other, implying that there is no relationship between them other than running into each other.

As indicated in the title text, there is nothing else to say about how they met.

==Transcript==
:[Cueball and Megan are standing on a white hill (presumably snow) with a grey sky covered with thick streaks of white, and small pink dots. All letters are written in lower case.]
:we are just two people
:who found each other

==Trivia==
*This was the 45th comic originally posted to [[LiveJournal]].
**The previous was [[47: Counter-Red Spiders]].
**The next was [[49: Want]].
*Original title: "Drawing: Found"
*Original [[Randall]] quote: "I'll get back to science humor and awful puns soon, don't worry."
*This comic was one of the last 11 comics posted on LiveJournal.
**These 11 comics were [[:Category:Posted on LiveJournal after xkcd|posted both on LiveJournal and xkcd]] after the [[xkcd]] site opened on the 1st of January 2006.
**This comic was posted on the same day on both sites.
**They were not all posted on the same day though.
*During the start-up of xkcd, four of the last 11 comics were released on days that deviated from the normal Monday, Wednesday, Friday scheme.
**This one was thus '''released on a Thursday'''.
**It was the first of a series of three where the release day was shifted to one day later.
**This one was posted in the middle of the day, 10:41 am.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics posted on livejournal| 45]]
[[Category:Posted on LiveJournal after xkcd]]
[[Category:Comics with color]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Megan]]
[[Category:Romance]]
[[Category:Comics with lowercase text]]