https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=141.101.89.221&feedformat=atomexplain xkcd - User contributions [en]2024-03-28T22:48:06ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.30.0https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:1386:_People_are_Stupid&diff=70392Talk:1386: People are Stupid2014-06-25T14:17:47Z<p>141.101.89.221: </p>
<hr />
<div>On average yes, an individual is of average intelligence. But taken as a population of a whole, well, that's a different story entirely. Randall needs a vacation, ever since he jumped the shark with the dead baby it just feels like the downward trend is getting steeper. --[[Special:Contributions/108.162.210.135|108.162.210.135]] 13:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Isn't that a reference to the Montgomery Burns Award for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Excellence? [[Special:Contributions/103.22.200.119|103.22.200.119]] 04:49, 25 June 2014 (UTC)krayZpaving<br />
<br />
White Hat being burned? This certainly will not end here.--[[Special:Contributions/141.101.102.208|141.101.102.208]] 04:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''''Explain xkcd: It's 'cause you're dumb.''''' This wiki is founded on the very principle that people are stupid. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.223.29|108.162.223.29]] 05:35, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: You make an intelligent point, which I both appreciate and like. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.222.50|108.162.222.50]] 13:41, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
::Awww, it's just a joke, it's not personal or anything! '''[[User:Davidy22|<u>{{Color|#707|David}}<font color=#070 size=3>y</font></u><font color=#508 size=4>²²</font>]]'''[[User talk:Davidy22|<tt>[talk]</tt>]] 13:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
This comment is one that makes me scratch my head and wonder... surely Randall is able to see that intelligence is not a relative but rather an absolute thing (if one were to kill the 10% most intelligent people the rest wouldn't get dumber, nor smarter). Surely intelligence is not to be measured in units of the common denominator. Surely it is obvious that 2nd panel is a pure strawman. Sigh...<br />
Oh and btw an IQ of 100 is the median, not the average. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.104.17|141.101.104.17]] 09:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: I am wondering if the explanation should not include a mention of the Median/Mean problem because it is entirely possible for a majority of a population to be above or below some mean (average) statistic depending on the distribution. Also stupidity is a standard that is not dependent on either median or mean.[[User:Sturmovik|Sturmovik]] ([[User talk:Sturmovik|talk]]) 11:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: The IQ of 100 is actually defined to be the median AND the average (and also the mode). It is also defined that the distibution around the IQ of 100 is a perfect bell curve. The IQ just tells you how many people in the world have your IQ (It is also defined that two values that have same distance from hundred, e.g. 80 and 120 have the same amount of people, 'cause it's a perfect bell curve (this means that there are as many people with IQ 120 as people with IQ 80). If the overall population gets more intelligent they have to make the IQ tests harder, so that 100 is again the average and median (This really happened). This and some other things are reasons why I think that IQ tests are BS. --[[Special:Contributions/141.101.93.219|141.101.93.219]] 14:01, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: "A test device with numerous correlates measures an amount of environmental influences beside innate determinants, therefore bullshit"... What are your other objections to I.Q. testing? [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.221|141.101.89.221]] 14:17, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The mocking "award", which is an analogy of saying "intelligence isn't everything" (an EXTREMELY common cliche), reflects the fact that Randall, like just about anyone, is oblivious to the magnitude of the totality of positive correlates of intelligence, and even (TRIGGER WARNING, TABOO CONCEPT AHEAD) I.Q. Intelligence, I.Q., not only makes you happier, it also makes you more helpful to other people, more creative, more socially stable, better-to-do, less susceptible to mental illnesses, more likely to remember events in your life, etc. etc. etc... Basically, there isn't a positive trait or quality of life with which intelligence doesn't correlate. But people positively LOATHE awareness of how highly intelligence, in fact, matters. Hence the vehement denial whenever someone indicates its importance, all the "I know an intelligent person who is miserable/mean/...", all stressing of exceptions, all ridicule of the notion of intelligence in general, all the "don't think about it"-mentality, all writing off of I.Q. as "antiquated, grossly limited, racist, metric" rather than the extremely potent predictor that it is. tl;dr Randall at all, take time to actually STUDY intelligence or the g factor before you mock it like that. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 09:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: In other words (and this is going to be my last addendum to this note, because it is a vast subject), whenever people say (or imply, as in the comic's case) that "intelligence isn't everything", the question to ask in return is, "okay, now what is the degree to which intelligence enables, facilitates, contributes to, 'the rest' to which you're opposing intelligence here?". People minimise the depth and breadth of the intellectual substrate of achievement. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 09:33, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Also, Randall (and everyone saying that) is being highly unjust in equating "people aren't smart" with "people aren't as smart as me". A perfectly valid alternative sense is, "people aren't as smart as to be rationally expected to contribute to rather than damage the discussion/situation/position at hand"--having the objective good, the objective recognition that certain situations (for instance, a certain online conversation which is expected to be competent) require certain minimal intellectual thresholds (for instance, an I.Q. of 120), in mind rather than egotic comparison. Lower intelligence, deny it all you please, comes with temperamental problems for instance. Selection for intelligence will largely filter them out. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 09:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: tl;dr of my entire production here: people must learn that BOTH situations of the Dunning-Kruger are equally harmful, the one that's less often considered perhaps actually even more so. Mistaken self-perception as intelligent is bad for the individual, but refusal to acknowledge the importance of one's own cognitive capacity (which is as good as universal in intelligent people--"I am not that smart" (who hasn't heard that one innumerable times?), "I just like doing thing x, my proficiency in it has nothing to do with my intelligence or I.Q.", "I have areas in which I'm 'stupid' too", "effort counts too") has societal consequences, of contributing to erroneous dismissal of the notions of intelligence & I.Q. & g etc. Shutting up for good now. Night. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 10:11, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
::: GAHHHHH just one more thing. Consider this: the fact that people dismiss I.Q. is the best indicator of how important a trait it really is. Thing is, people would not feel compelled by modesty to deny its importance had it not been vitally integral to many, many things. We deny what we value, so to give hope to those who lack that thing (to comfort those who lack intelligence). [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 10:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
:::: Hey 141.101.89.211... I wonder if you have something to say, but despite my best efforts, I'm having trouble following everything you're saying - I have a feeling you were a bit emotional (perhaps tired?) when writing that, or you might have had fewer "more things" immediately following "I'm done" statements. If you're up for it, I'd appreciate you taking the time to make sure you're saying what you want to say, and ''then'' say it, because you seem to at least have good grammar (though there ''were'' a few British spellings... :-D), so I suspect you probably have a good point. It's also conceivable that I'm just not smart enough to get what you're saying (?) or perhaps it's just too ''early'' for me. BTW the best way of making sure I see what you're saying would probably be to let me know on my [[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk page]]... might even have the conversation there if you'd prefer. Thanks for your time. [[User:Brettpeirce|Brettpeirce]] ([[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk]]) 11:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I would add one "people are stupid" angle not yet mentioned: judging by behavior, most groups of people are less intelligent that any member of that group individually. This is valid even for the "all people" group - just look at the planet. Surprisingly, judging by content of most wikis, the "editors of wiki" groups seems to immune. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 10:05, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Good point--conforming to pressures of one's group or one's position to the detriment of one's judgment is a separate personality trait. The phenomenon is remedied by intelligence, but independent from it. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 10:11, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Beat me to it. I'd like to add that even individual people have their occasional stupid and intelligent moments, with the stupid ones typically being of greater magnitude. Thus, it's not unreasonable to say that the average actions of people are at least slightly less intelligent than the average intelligence of most people on most days. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.55.83|173.245.55.83]] 12:13, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I can't believe people say things like that, man, people are stupid [[User:Halfhat|Halfhat]] ([[User talk:Halfhat|talk]]) 10:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Thanks for the Lake Wobegon references. Not only is it on-target, but I take personal joy seeing mentions of uniquely Minnesotan culture anywhere I can find them. --BigMal27, Minnesota-born, Minnesotan-raised // [[Special:Contributions/173.245.55.88|173.245.55.88]] 11:53, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Instead of saying, "People are stupid," we would do better to say "People make poor decisions / statements / judgments." And this, for multiple reasons, few of them I suspect tied to basal intelligence. Stage of life, level of health and stress, experience relative to the topic, level of education and the quality of that education, cultural idiotic beliefs that interfere with optimal choices, and a zillion others. Plus, as a large percentage of humans are either just coming online in experience and education, or are winding down in health and mental function, we are guaranteed to see a large percentage of stupid decisions right across the IQ landscape. No help for it. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.246.217|108.162.246.217]] 13:04, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: I.Q. affects level of health and stress, rate of acquisition of experience, level of education, quality of education obtained, preference of cultural beliefs. It doesn't seem to defy reason that it affects the zillion other factors, too. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.221|141.101.89.221]] 13:17, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Remember, in interaction between psychological and social factors, the question is never of *existence* of a connection, but of its magnitude. It is fine to posit a multitude of environmental factors that determine (ir)rationality, but as long as such position keeps people from connecting I.Q. with those factors' actual occurrence (how much I.Q. does it take to finish a good school? to develop a habit of reading a book every month? this is not at all trivial question, and it needs to be resolved with more than anecdotal evidence of "I know an intelligent illiterate person"), there might be an elephant buried underneath the room which no one knows about. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.221|141.101.89.221]] 13:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC)</div>141.101.89.221https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Brettpeirce&diff=70391User talk:Brettpeirce2014-06-25T14:03:36Z<p>141.101.89.221: /* My intelligence rant */</p>
<hr />
<div>Howdy.<br />
<br />
Wanna talk to me?<br />
<br />
While I can't guarantee I'll respond, mostly because I'm not sure if I'll check and see your comment or query...<br />
<br />
I'll try :-)<br />
<br />
[[User:Brettpeirce|Brettpeirce]] ([[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk]]) 14:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Hi Brettpeirce, you will have seen a message at the top on every page about my reply here until you have checked it. Welcome! --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 19:51, 28 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: -> That would indeed help remind me to check, now wouldn't it? Assuming, of course, that I notice that notification (and I'm logged in... :-D) [[User:Brettpeirce|Brettpeirce]] ([[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk]]) 15:33, 5 March 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== My intelligence rant ==<br />
<br />
Hiya.<br />
<br />
I'm quite sorry for disturbing (dividing, perhaps) the talk page of the comic with my walls of text (you may remove them, if you're an admin--I won't mind, as I know I have been read by at least one person--you!). I was emotional, am tired, and am stupid, too (actually stupid, as in, actually mentally challenged, not "stupid" in the predominant, metaphorical sense of "temporarily irrational" or "temporarily doing unpractical things"--I believe that "stupid" and "smart" should refer strictly to one's real mental standing--unpopular as this position (and the very position of existence of a numerical intellectual standing to begin with) is).<br />
<br />
My point was simple: the comic's last panel basically says, "being smart doesn't matter" ("...because there are other things that are important in a discussion, such as politeness, sense of relevance of comments, being of specific use in the situation at hand, etc."). My rant was an obtuse way to communicate that such implications, if left uncommented and uncriticised, are going to obscure the importance of intelligence in popular perception, through contributing to brushing it off and viewing it in narrow terms of academic and logical ability (nothing could be farther from the truth; intelligence, I.Q. is MUCH more relevant than that, it permeates all areas of functioning). For instance, intelligence, the "smartness" that Randall by and large ridiculed here (i.e., the trait that White Hat had in mind) contributes to politeness and to amount of knowledge as may be productively provided in any, any at all, discussion, as well as ability to be of specific, tangible assistance in any at all interpersonal problem.<br />
<br />
Sorry. Bye! [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.204|141.101.89.204]] 12:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Regarding (--yes--I've already begun saying my farewells and then returning with additions here as well) the relationship of intelligence and "academic and logical ability"--the perspective to have is that those do not ''constitute'' intelligence, but only ''indicate'' the real thing, the real mental trait. They--memorisation of facts and conscious mental manipulation of e.g. logical relationships--are just most observable, most measurable, least likely to be afflicted by adverse social circumstances, most consistent and persistent. But they correlate with the plethora of social desirable and interpersonal outcomes that I indicated: to all kinds of interpersonal and intrapersonal success, such as wisdom. Wisdom, however defined, correlates with I.Q.; this is a phrasing that expresses well my whole point, that makes clear that my intent was to bridge the hard, scientific concept of I.Q. and real-life functioning, such as knowing how to behave pleasantly in a conversation. Randall's comic destroys that bridge; it sarcastically posits that "smartness" is "not relevant" to "things that matter". This is a position I cannot stand. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.88.203|141.101.88.203]] 12:38, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: Also: the correct repartee to claims (so common) that "intelligence means nothing without..." ("...wishing others well, 'confidence', 'effort', 'trying your best'") is: "just like with lungs or with kidneys. You lack them, you die, your intelligence cannot be put to use. what's your point?" Such claims detract from determining the ROLE of I.Q. in wishing well, in confidence, in effort, and so on and so on. They keep from determining the cognitive components of various behaviours. Do you see what I mean? Such claims causally separate and ostracise intelligence among all mental traits, and result in it being largely unstudied. All I want is for people to ask themselves the simple question, "when I successfully do something, either socially or for myself, has intelligence (I.Q.) contributed to it, and if so, to what degree?". Comics like that harm this kind of introspection, by ridiculing the notion of individual "smartness". [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.221|141.101.89.221]] 12:54, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: The point is to replace the simple causal fork of "I.Q. + effort = achievement" with a network of causal interactions between the three--ALL three, including the ways that innate I.Q. contributes to tendency to give effort. Comics like that contribute to keeping to the simple linear equation. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.221|141.101.89.221]] 13:01, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
::: Every time you hear a claim (so common) that "some people with high I.Q.'s still make mistakes/stupid decisions/behave in a hostile/irresponsible/irrational way...", ask yourself, "have I dutifully researched the magnitude of the difference between intelligent and unintelligent people in that respect? does this cliche carry the danger that I fail to appreciate this difference?" The point is, people will again and again and again refer to the fact that intelligence doesn't make you some supreme, perfect being, a god incarnate that never errs... This begs the question... Whom are they going to convince by stressing that? What does this thought process reflect? Why do people have to reach as far as to say the self-obvious fact that "people with I.Q. still make mistakes" in order to discredit the concept in some way (most likely, to comfort a stupid person)? What is it that has made I.Q. a god concept, a solver-for-all-problems, which to subsequently shoot down from this elevated position?... I'm tired, Brett. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.221|141.101.89.221]] 14:03, 25 June 2014 (UTC)</div>141.101.89.221https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:1386:_People_are_Stupid&diff=70386Talk:1386: People are Stupid2014-06-25T13:25:04Z<p>141.101.89.221: </p>
<hr />
<div>On average yes, an individual is of average intelligence. But taken as a population of a whole, well, that's a different story entirely. Randall needs a vacation, ever since he jumped the shark with the dead baby it just feels like the downward trend is getting steeper. --[[Special:Contributions/108.162.210.135|108.162.210.135]] 13:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Isn't that a reference to the Montgomery Burns Award for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Excellence? [[Special:Contributions/103.22.200.119|103.22.200.119]] 04:49, 25 June 2014 (UTC)krayZpaving<br />
<br />
White Hat being burned? This certainly will not end here.--[[Special:Contributions/141.101.102.208|141.101.102.208]] 04:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''''Explain xkcd: It's 'cause you're dumb.''''' This wiki is founded on the very principle that people are stupid. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.223.29|108.162.223.29]] 05:35, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
This comment is one that makes me scratch my head and wonder... surely Randall is able to see that intelligence is not a relative but rather an absolute thing (if one were to kill the 10% most intelligent people the rest wouldn't get dumber, nor smarter). Surely intelligence is not to be measured in units of the common denominator. Surely it is obvious that 2nd panel is a pure strawman. Sigh...<br />
Oh and btw an IQ of 100 is the median, not the average. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.104.17|141.101.104.17]] 09:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: I am wondering if the explanation should not include a mention of the Median/Mean problem because it is entirely possible for a majority of a population to be above or below some mean (average) statistic depending on the distribution. Also stupidity is a standard that is not dependent on either median or mean.[[User:Sturmovik|Sturmovik]] ([[User talk:Sturmovik|talk]]) 11:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC) <br />
<br />
The mocking "award", which is an analogy of saying "intelligence isn't everything" (an EXTREMELY common cliche), reflects the fact that Randall, like just about anyone, is oblivious to the magnitude of the totality of positive correlates of intelligence, and even (TRIGGER WARNING, TABOO CONCEPT AHEAD) I.Q. Intelligence, I.Q., not only makes you happier, it also makes you more helpful to other people, more creative, more socially stable, better-to-do, less susceptible to mental illnesses, more likely to remember events in your life, etc. etc. etc... Basically, there isn't a positive trait or quality of life with which intelligence doesn't correlate. But people positively LOATHE awareness of how highly intelligence, in fact, matters. Hence the vehement denial whenever someone indicates its importance, all the "I know an intelligent person who is miserable/mean/...", all stressing of exceptions, all ridicule of the notion of intelligence in general, all the "don't think about it"-mentality, all writing off of I.Q. as "antiquated, grossly limited, racist, metric" rather than the extremely potent predictor that it is. tl;dr Randall at all, take time to actually STUDY intelligence or the g factor before you mock it like that. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 09:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: In other words (and this is going to be my last addendum to this note, because it is a vast subject), whenever people say (or imply, as in the comic's case) that "intelligence isn't everything", the question to ask in return is, "okay, now what is the degree to which intelligence enables, facilitates, contributes to, 'the rest' to which you're opposing intelligence here?". People minimise the depth and breadth of the intellectual substrate of achievement. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 09:33, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Also, Randall (and everyone saying that) is being highly unjust in equating "people aren't smart" with "people aren't as smart as me". A perfectly valid alternative sense is, "people aren't as smart as to be rationally expected to contribute to rather than damage the discussion/situation/position at hand"--having the objective good, the objective recognition that certain situations (for instance, a certain online conversation which is expected to be competent) require certain minimal intellectual thresholds (for instance, an I.Q. of 120), in mind rather than egotic comparison. Lower intelligence, deny it all you please, comes with temperamental problems for instance. Selection for intelligence will largely filter them out. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 09:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: tl;dr of my entire production here: people must learn that BOTH situations of the Dunning-Kruger are equally harmful, the one that's less often considered perhaps actually even more so. Mistaken self-perception as intelligent is bad for the individual, but refusal to acknowledge the importance of one's own cognitive capacity (which is as good as universal in intelligent people--"I am not that smart" (who hasn't heard that one innumerable times?), "I just like doing thing x, my proficiency in it has nothing to do with my intelligence or I.Q.", "I have areas in which I'm 'stupid' too", "effort counts too") has societal consequences, of contributing to erroneous dismissal of the notions of intelligence & I.Q. & g etc. Shutting up for good now. Night. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 10:11, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
::: GAHHHHH just one more thing. Consider this: the fact that people dismiss I.Q. is the best indicator of how important a trait it really is. Thing is, people would not feel compelled by modesty to deny its importance had it not been vitally integral to many, many things. We deny what we value, so to give hope to those who lack that thing (to comfort those who lack intelligence). [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 10:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
:::: Hey 141.101.89.211... I wonder if you have something to say, but despite my best efforts, I'm having trouble following everything you're saying - I have a feeling you were a bit emotional (perhaps tired?) when writing that, or you might have had fewer "more things" immediately following "I'm done" statements. If you're up for it, I'd appreciate you taking the time to make sure you're saying what you want to say, and ''then'' say it, because you seem to at least have good grammar (though there ''were'' a few British spellings... :-D), so I suspect you probably have a good point. It's also conceivable that I'm just not smart enough to get what you're saying (?) or perhaps it's just too ''early'' for me. BTW the best way of making sure I see what you're saying would probably be to let me know on my [[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk page]]... might even have the conversation there if you'd prefer. Thanks for your time. [[User:Brettpeirce|Brettpeirce]] ([[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk]]) 11:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I would add one "people are stupid" angle not yet mentioned: judging by behavior, most groups of people are less intelligent that any member of that group individually. This is valid even for the "all people" group - just look at the planet. Surprisingly, judging by content of most wikis, the "editors of wiki" groups seems to immune. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 10:05, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Good point--conforming to pressures of one's group or one's position to the detriment of one's judgment is a separate personality trait. The phenomenon is remedied by intelligence, but independent from it. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 10:11, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Beat me to it. I'd like to add that even individual people have their occasional stupid and intelligent moments, with the stupid ones typically being of greater magnitude. Thus, it's not unreasonable to say that the average actions of people are at least slightly less intelligent than the average intelligence of most people on most days. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.55.83|173.245.55.83]] 12:13, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I can't believe people say things like that, man, people are stupid [[User:Halfhat|Halfhat]] ([[User talk:Halfhat|talk]]) 10:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Thanks for the Lake Wobegon references. Not only is it on-target, but I take personal joy seeing mentions of uniquely Minnesotan culture anywhere I can find them. --BigMal27, Minnesota-born, Minnesotan-raised // [[Special:Contributions/173.245.55.88|173.245.55.88]] 11:53, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Instead of saying, "People are stupid," we would do better to say "People make poor decisions / statements / judgments." And this, for multiple reasons, few of them I suspect tied to basal intelligence. Stage of life, level of health and stress, experience relative to the topic, level of education and the quality of that education, cultural idiotic beliefs that interfere with optimal choices, and a zillion others. Plus, as a large percentage of humans are either just coming online in experience and education, or are winding down in health and mental function, we are guaranteed to see a large percentage of stupid decisions right across the IQ landscape. No help for it. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.246.217|108.162.246.217]] 13:04, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: I.Q. affects level of health and stress, rate of acquisition of experience, level of education, quality of education obtained, preference of cultural beliefs. It doesn't seem to defy reason that it affects the zillion other factors, too. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.221|141.101.89.221]] 13:17, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Remember, in interaction between psychological and social factors, the question is never of *existence* of a connection, but of its magnitude. It is fine to posit a multitude of environmental factors that determine (ir)rationality, but as long as such position keeps people from connecting I.Q. with those factors' actual occurrence (how much I.Q. does it take to finish a good school? to develop a habit of reading a book every month? this is not at all trivial question, and it needs to be resolved with more than anecdotal evidence of "I know an intelligent illiterate person"), there might be an elephant buried underneath the room which no one knows about. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.221|141.101.89.221]] 13:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC)</div>141.101.89.221https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:1386:_People_are_Stupid&diff=70382Talk:1386: People are Stupid2014-06-25T13:17:38Z<p>141.101.89.221: </p>
<hr />
<div>Isn't that a reference to the Montgomery Burns Award for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Excellence? [[Special:Contributions/103.22.200.119|103.22.200.119]] 04:49, 25 June 2014 (UTC)krayZpaving<br />
<br />
White Hat being burned? This certainly will not end here.--[[Special:Contributions/141.101.102.208|141.101.102.208]] 04:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''''Explain xkcd: It's 'cause you're dumb.''''' This wiki is founded on the very principle that people are stupid. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.223.29|108.162.223.29]] 05:35, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
This comment is one that makes me scratch my head and wonder... surely Randall is able to see that intelligence is not a relative but rather an absolute thing (if one were to kill the 10% most intelligent people the rest wouldn't get dumber, nor smarter). Surely intelligence is not to be measured in units of the common denominator. Surely it is obvious that 2nd panel is a pure strawman. Sigh...<br />
Oh and btw an IQ of 100 is the median, not the average. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.104.17|141.101.104.17]] 09:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: I am wondering if the explanation should not include a mention of the Median/Mean problem because it is entirely possible for a majority of a population to be above or below some mean (average) statistic depending on the distribution. Also stupidity is a standard that is not dependent on either median or mean.[[User:Sturmovik|Sturmovik]] ([[User talk:Sturmovik|talk]]) 11:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC) <br />
<br />
The mocking "award", which is an analogy of saying "intelligence isn't everything" (an EXTREMELY common cliche), reflects the fact that Randall, like just about anyone, is oblivious to the magnitude of the totality of positive correlates of intelligence, and even (TRIGGER WARNING, TABOO CONCEPT AHEAD) I.Q. Intelligence, I.Q., not only makes you happier, it also makes you more helpful to other people, more creative, more socially stable, better-to-do, less susceptible to mental illnesses, more likely to remember events in your life, etc. etc. etc... Basically, there isn't a positive trait or quality of life with which intelligence doesn't correlate. But people positively LOATHE awareness of how highly intelligence, in fact, matters. Hence the vehement denial whenever someone indicates its importance, all the "I know an intelligent person who is miserable/mean/...", all stressing of exceptions, all ridicule of the notion of intelligence in general, all the "don't think about it"-mentality, all writing off of I.Q. as "antiquated, grossly limited, racist, metric" rather than the extremely potent predictor that it is. tl;dr Randall at all, take time to actually STUDY intelligence or the g factor before you mock it like that. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 09:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: In other words (and this is going to be my last addendum to this note, because it is a vast subject), whenever people say (or imply, as in the comic's case) that "intelligence isn't everything", the question to ask in return is, "okay, now what is the degree to which intelligence enables, facilitates, contributes to, 'the rest' to which you're opposing intelligence here?". People minimise the depth and breadth of the intellectual substrate of achievement. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 09:33, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Also, Randall (and everyone saying that) is being highly unjust in equating "people aren't smart" with "people aren't as smart as me". A perfectly valid alternative sense is, "people aren't as smart as to be rationally expected to contribute to rather than damage the discussion/situation/position at hand"--having the objective good, the objective recognition that certain situations (for instance, a certain online conversation which is expected to be competent) require certain minimal intellectual thresholds (for instance, an I.Q. of 120), in mind rather than egotic comparison. Lower intelligence, deny it all you please, comes with temperamental problems for instance. Selection for intelligence will largely filter them out. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 09:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: tl;dr of my entire production here: people must learn that BOTH situations of the Dunning-Kruger are equally harmful, the one that's less often considered perhaps actually even more so. Mistaken self-perception as intelligent is bad for the individual, but refusal to acknowledge the importance of one's own cognitive capacity (which is as good as universal in intelligent people--"I am not that smart" (who hasn't heard that one innumerable times?), "I just like doing thing x, my proficiency in it has nothing to do with my intelligence or I.Q.", "I have areas in which I'm 'stupid' too", "effort counts too") has societal consequences, of contributing to erroneous dismissal of the notions of intelligence & I.Q. & g etc. Shutting up for good now. Night. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 10:11, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
::: GAHHHHH just one more thing. Consider this: the fact that people dismiss I.Q. is the best indicator of how important a trait it really is. Thing is, people would not feel compelled by modesty to deny its importance had it not been vitally integral to many, many things. We deny what we value, so to give hope to those who lack that thing (to comfort those who lack intelligence). [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 10:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
:::: Hey 141.101.89.211... I wonder if you have something to say, but despite my best efforts, I'm having trouble following everything you're saying - I have a feeling you were a bit emotional (perhaps tired?) when writing that, or you might have had fewer "more things" immediately following "I'm done" statements. If you're up for it, I'd appreciate you taking the time to make sure you're saying what you want to say, and ''then'' say it, because you seem to at least have good grammar (though there ''were'' a few British spellings... :-D), so I suspect you probably have a good point. It's also conceivable that I'm just not smart enough to get what you're saying (?) or perhaps it's just too ''early'' for me. BTW the best way of making sure I see what you're saying would probably be to let me know on my [[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk page]]... might even have the conversation there if you'd prefer. Thanks for your time. [[User:Brettpeirce|Brettpeirce]] ([[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk]]) 11:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I would add one "people are stupid" angle not yet mentioned: judging by behavior, most groups of people are less intelligent that any member of that group individually. This is valid even for the "all people" group - just look at the planet. Surprisingly, judging by content of most wikis, the "editors of wiki" groups seems to immune. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 10:05, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Good point--conforming to pressures of one's group or one's position to the detriment of one's judgment is a separate personality trait. The phenomenon is remedied by intelligence, but independent from it. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.211|141.101.89.211]] 10:11, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Beat me to it. I'd like to add that even individual people have their occasional stupid and intelligent moments, with the stupid ones typically being of greater magnitude. Thus, it's not unreasonable to say that the average actions of people are at least slightly less intelligent than the average intelligence of most people on most days. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.55.83|173.245.55.83]] 12:13, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I can't believe people say things like that, man, people are stupid [[User:Halfhat|Halfhat]] ([[User talk:Halfhat|talk]]) 10:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Thanks for the Lake Wobegon references. Not only is it on-target, but I take personal joy seeing mentions of uniquely Minnesotan culture anywhere I can find them. --BigMal27, Minnesota-born, Minnesotan-raised // [[Special:Contributions/173.245.55.88|173.245.55.88]] 11:53, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Instead of saying, "People are stupid," we would do better to say "People make poor decisions / statements / judgments." And this, for multiple reasons, few of them I suspect tied to basal intelligence. Stage of life, level of health and stress, experience relative to the topic, level of education and the quality of that education, cultural idiotic beliefs that interfere with optimal choices, and a zillion others. Plus, as a large percentage of humans are either just coming online in experience and education, or are winding down in health and mental function, we are guaranteed to see a large percentage of stupid decisions right across the IQ landscape. No help for it. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.246.217|108.162.246.217]] 13:04, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: I.Q. affects level of health and stress, rate of acquisition of experience, level of education, quality of education obtained, preference of cultural beliefs. It doesn't seem to defy reason that it affects the zillion other factors, too. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.221|141.101.89.221]] 13:17, 25 June 2014 (UTC)</div>141.101.89.221https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Brettpeirce&diff=70380User talk:Brettpeirce2014-06-25T13:01:10Z<p>141.101.89.221: /* My intelligence rant */</p>
<hr />
<div>Howdy.<br />
<br />
Wanna talk to me?<br />
<br />
While I can't guarantee I'll respond, mostly because I'm not sure if I'll check and see your comment or query...<br />
<br />
I'll try :-)<br />
<br />
[[User:Brettpeirce|Brettpeirce]] ([[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk]]) 14:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Hi Brettpeirce, you will have seen a message at the top on every page about my reply here until you have checked it. Welcome! --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 19:51, 28 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: -> That would indeed help remind me to check, now wouldn't it? Assuming, of course, that I notice that notification (and I'm logged in... :-D) [[User:Brettpeirce|Brettpeirce]] ([[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk]]) 15:33, 5 March 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== My intelligence rant ==<br />
<br />
Hiya.<br />
<br />
I'm quite sorry for disturbing (dividing, perhaps) the talk page of the comic with my walls of text (you may remove them, if you're an admin--I won't mind, as I know I have been read by at least one person--you!). I was emotional, am tired, and am stupid, too (actually stupid, as in, actually mentally challenged, not "stupid" in the predominant, metaphorical sense of "temporarily irrational" or "temporarily doing unpractical things"--I believe that "stupid" and "smart" should refer strictly to one's real mental standing--unpopular as this position (and the very position of existence of a numerical intellectual standing to begin with) is).<br />
<br />
My point was simple: the comic's last panel basically says, "being smart doesn't matter" ("...because there are other things that are important in a discussion, such as politeness, sense of relevance of comments, being of specific use in the situation at hand, etc."). My rant was an obtuse way to communicate that such implications, if left uncommented and uncriticised, are going to obscure the importance of intelligence in popular perception, through contributing to brushing it off and viewing it in narrow terms of academic and logical ability (nothing could be farther from the truth; intelligence, I.Q. is MUCH more relevant than that, it permeates all areas of functioning). For instance, intelligence, the "smartness" that Randall by and large ridiculed here (i.e., the trait that White Hat had in mind) contributes to politeness and to amount of knowledge as may be productively provided in any, any at all, discussion, as well as ability to be of specific, tangible assistance in any at all interpersonal problem.<br />
<br />
Sorry. Bye! [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.204|141.101.89.204]] 12:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Regarding (--yes--I've already begun saying my farewells and then returning with additions here as well) the relationship of intelligence and "academic and logical ability"--the perspective to have is that those do not ''constitute'' intelligence, but only ''indicate'' the real thing, the real mental trait. They--memorisation of facts and conscious mental manipulation of e.g. logical relationships--are just most observable, most measurable, least likely to be afflicted by adverse social circumstances, most consistent and persistent. But they correlate with the plethora of social desirable and interpersonal outcomes that I indicated: to all kinds of interpersonal and intrapersonal success, such as wisdom. Wisdom, however defined, correlates with I.Q.; this is a phrasing that expresses well my whole point, that makes clear that my intent was to bridge the hard, scientific concept of I.Q. and real-life functioning, such as knowing how to behave pleasantly in a conversation. Randall's comic destroys that bridge; it sarcastically posits that "smartness" is "not relevant" to "things that matter". This is a position I cannot stand. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.88.203|141.101.88.203]] 12:38, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: Also: the correct repartee to claims (so common) that "intelligence means nothing without..." ("...wishing others well, 'confidence', 'effort', 'trying your best'") is: "just like with lungs or with kidneys. You lack them, you die, your intelligence cannot be put to use. what's your point?" Such claims detract from determining the ROLE of I.Q. in wishing well, in confidence, in effort, and so on and so on. They keep from determining the cognitive components of various behaviours. Do you see what I mean? Such claims causally separate and ostracise intelligence among all mental traits, and result in it being largely unstudied. All I want is for people to ask themselves the simple question, "when I successfully do something, either socially or for myself, has intelligence (I.Q.) contributed to it, and if so, to what degree?". Comics like that harm this kind of introspection, by ridiculing the notion of individual "smartness". [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.221|141.101.89.221]] 12:54, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: The point is to replace the simple causal fork of "I.Q. + effort = achievement" with a network of causal interactions between the three--ALL three, including the ways that innate I.Q. contributes to tendency to give effort. Comics like that contribute to keeping to the simple linear equation. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.221|141.101.89.221]] 13:01, 25 June 2014 (UTC)</div>141.101.89.221https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Brettpeirce&diff=70378User talk:Brettpeirce2014-06-25T12:54:56Z<p>141.101.89.221: /* My intelligence rant */</p>
<hr />
<div>Howdy.<br />
<br />
Wanna talk to me?<br />
<br />
While I can't guarantee I'll respond, mostly because I'm not sure if I'll check and see your comment or query...<br />
<br />
I'll try :-)<br />
<br />
[[User:Brettpeirce|Brettpeirce]] ([[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk]]) 14:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Hi Brettpeirce, you will have seen a message at the top on every page about my reply here until you have checked it. Welcome! --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 19:51, 28 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: -> That would indeed help remind me to check, now wouldn't it? Assuming, of course, that I notice that notification (and I'm logged in... :-D) [[User:Brettpeirce|Brettpeirce]] ([[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk]]) 15:33, 5 March 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== My intelligence rant ==<br />
<br />
Hiya.<br />
<br />
I'm quite sorry for disturbing (dividing, perhaps) the talk page of the comic with my walls of text (you may remove them, if you're an admin--I won't mind, as I know I have been read by at least one person--you!). I was emotional, am tired, and am stupid, too (actually stupid, as in, actually mentally challenged, not "stupid" in the predominant, metaphorical sense of "temporarily irrational" or "temporarily doing unpractical things"--I believe that "stupid" and "smart" should refer strictly to one's real mental standing--unpopular as this position (and the very position of existence of a numerical intellectual standing to begin with) is).<br />
<br />
My point was simple: the comic's last panel basically says, "being smart doesn't matter" ("...because there are other things that are important in a discussion, such as politeness, sense of relevance of comments, being of specific use in the situation at hand, etc."). My rant was an obtuse way to communicate that such implications, if left uncommented and uncriticised, are going to obscure the importance of intelligence in popular perception, through contributing to brushing it off and viewing it in narrow terms of academic and logical ability (nothing could be farther from the truth; intelligence, I.Q. is MUCH more relevant than that, it permeates all areas of functioning). For instance, intelligence, the "smartness" that Randall by and large ridiculed here (i.e., the trait that White Hat had in mind) contributes to politeness and to amount of knowledge as may be productively provided in any, any at all, discussion, as well as ability to be of specific, tangible assistance in any at all interpersonal problem.<br />
<br />
Sorry. Bye! [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.204|141.101.89.204]] 12:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Regarding (--yes--I've already begun saying my farewells and then returning with additions here as well) the relationship of intelligence and "academic and logical ability"--the perspective to have is that those do not ''constitute'' intelligence, but only ''indicate'' the real thing, the real mental trait. They--memorisation of facts and conscious mental manipulation of e.g. logical relationships--are just most observable, most measurable, least likely to be afflicted by adverse social circumstances, most consistent and persistent. But they correlate with the plethora of social desirable and interpersonal outcomes that I indicated: to all kinds of interpersonal and intrapersonal success, such as wisdom. Wisdom, however defined, correlates with I.Q.; this is a phrasing that expresses well my whole point, that makes clear that my intent was to bridge the hard, scientific concept of I.Q. and real-life functioning, such as knowing how to behave pleasantly in a conversation. Randall's comic destroys that bridge; it sarcastically posits that "smartness" is "not relevant" to "things that matter". This is a position I cannot stand. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.88.203|141.101.88.203]] 12:38, 25 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: Also: the correct repartee to claims (so common) that "intelligence means nothing without..." ("...wishing others well, 'confidence', 'effort', 'trying your best'") is: "just like with lungs or with kidneys. You lack them, you die, your intelligence cannot be put to use. what's your point?" Such claims detract from determining the ROLE of I.Q. in wishing well, in confidence, in effort, and so on and so on. They keep from determining the cognitive components of various behaviours. Do you see what I mean? Such claims causally separate and ostracise intelligence among all mental traits, and result in it being largely unstudied. All I want is for people to ask themselves the simple question, "when I successfully do something, either socially or for myself, has intelligence (I.Q.) contributed to it, and if so, to what degree?". Comics like that harm this kind of introspection, by ridiculing the notion of individual "smartness". [[Special:Contributions/141.101.89.221|141.101.89.221]] 12:54, 25 June 2014 (UTC)</div>141.101.89.221