3090: Sail Physics - Revision history

Natg19: /* Transcript */ sail cat

2026-01-13T07:01:35Z

‎Transcript: sail cat

Xurkitree10: /* Explanation */

2025-07-30T04:13:06Z

‎Explanation

FaviFake at 13:04, 16 June 2025

2025-06-16T13:04:11Z

172.70.160.160: /* Explanation */

2025-05-20T08:22:45Z

‎Explanation

172.70.211.12: /* Explanation */ linked comic

2025-05-20T00:40:05Z

‎Explanation: linked comic

141.101.98.165: /* Explanation */

2025-05-19T15:01:39Z

‎Explanation

172.68.23.127: /* Explanation */ "lift" is a confusing word for horizontal forces

2025-05-19T08:38:59Z

‎Explanation: "lift" is a confusing word for horizontal forces

141.101.99.124: /* The More Correct Explanation */

2025-05-19T08:33:29Z

‎The More Correct Explanation

172.71.241.41: /* The More Correct Explanation */

2025-05-19T08:30:33Z

‎The More Correct Explanation

104.23.175.174: /* Explanation */

2025-05-19T05:31:12Z

‎Explanation

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:01, 13 January 2026
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	[[Category:Physics]]		[[Category:Physics]]
		+	[[Category:Sailboats]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:13, 30 July 2025
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	==Explanation==		==Explanation==
−	~~{{incomplete\|This page was created by a wind-blown electron from a man on a boat. Don't remove this notice too soon.}}~~
	This comic starts off looking like a typical explanation of how {{w\|sailboat}}s can travel upwind — a topic that continues to spark debate and refinement in physics circles. However, it quickly takes a strange tack into a completely fictional and incorrect theory involving triboelectric charging and the Lorentz force, rather than referencing real mechanisms like {{w\|airfoil}} aerodynamics.		This comic starts off looking like a typical explanation of how {{w\|sailboat}}s can travel upwind — a topic that continues to spark debate and refinement in physics circles. However, it quickly takes a strange tack into a completely fictional and incorrect theory involving triboelectric charging and the Lorentz force, rather than referencing real mechanisms like {{w\|airfoil}} aerodynamics.

@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 ==Explanation==
 {{incomplete|This page was created by a wind-blown electron from a man on a boat. Don't remove this notice too soon.}}
-This comic starts off looking like a typical explanation of how {{w|sailboat}}s can travel upwind — a topic that continues to spark debate and refinement in physics circles. However, it quickly takes a strange tack into a completely fictional and incorrect theory involving triboelectric charging and the Lorentz force, rather than referencing real mechanisms like {{w|airfoil}} aerodynamics.
+This humor works at another level — most interaction of physical things at macro scale (humans and boat sized objects) are electromagnetic in nature.  So one unaware of sailing mechanics may start to explain the situation with electromagnetism, and could come to this line of thinking, but it is wrong. If we are to consider this, we find that either no force is appearing in the direction shown, or very little. Sailing into the wind was also the topic of [[3013: Kedging Cannon]].
-This humor works at another level — most interaction of physical things at macro scale (humans and boat sized objects) are electromagnetic in nature.  So one unaware of sailing mechanics may start to explain the situation with electromagnetism, and could come to this line of thinking, but it is wrong. If we are to consider this, we find that either no force is appearing in the direction shown, or very little.
+: The second panel portrays the {{w|triboelectric effect}}, which is transfer of static charge through the motion between two 'objects', which in turn depends on effective interaction surface area. It shows charge being accumulated by the wind stripping electrons from the sail of the boat, leaving the sail positively charged. Among other problems, the charge that can be acquired is typically very small.
-The first panel is a fairly accurate diagram used to explain the reasons why a boat can sail into the wind (see below), it just sets up the scenario.
+; Third panel
-The second panel portrays the {{w|triboelectric effect}}, which is transfer of static charge through the motion between two 'objects', which in turn depends on effective interaction surface area. It shows charge being accumulated by the wind stripping electrons from the sail of the boat, leaving the sail positively charged. Among other problems, the charge that can be acquired is typically very small.
+: The third panel shows the boat being blown sideways by the wind, which a sideways-facing boat hull would highly resist (see below). This motion of a charged body through the {{w|Earth's magnetic field}}, however,  results in a {{w|Lorentz force}}. Depending upon the relative directions of motion and the magnetic field, this ''could'' generate a perpendicular force in the direction the hull is pointing, as indicated, assuming the entire premise was even as promised.
-The third panel shows the boat being blown sideways by the wind, which a sideways-facing boat hull would highly resist (see below). This motion of a charged body through the {{w|Earth's magnetic field}}, however,  results in a {{w|Lorentz force}}. Depending upon the relative directions of motion and the magnetic field, this ''could'' generate a perpendicular force in the direction the hull is pointing, as indicated, assuming the entire premise was even as promised.
+; Fourth panel
-The final panel demonstrates this force diverting the downwind (and sideways) motion of the boat forward. As well as the various other problems that exist with the whole scenario, this is contrary to promise of allowing the boat to sail upwind, as the originally indicated wind direction and the finally indicated path results, if anything, in movement slightly downwind.
+: The final panel demonstrates this force diverting the downwind (and sideways) motion of the boat forward. As well as the various other problems that exist with the whole scenario, this is contrary to promise of allowing the boat to sail upwind, as the originally indicated wind direction and the finally indicated path results, if anything, in movement slightly downwind.
-The title text invokes further {{w|technobabble}} to suggests using a magnetised {{w|centreboard|retractable keel}} to adjust the nature of the forces. It conflates {{w|ocean current}}s (the global flow of water) and {{w|electric current}}s (the movement of charged particles). Perhaps from the supposed ability to move the magnet through the charge, as opposed to the other way round. It invokes the "Laplace force", which is just a {{w|Lorentz force#Force on a current-carrying wire|technical variation}} of the Lorentzian one.
+; Title text
-Sailing into the wind was also the topic of [[3013: Kedging Cannon]].
+: The  invokes further {{w|technobabble}} to suggests using a magnetised {{w|centreboard|retractable keel}} to adjust the nature of the forces. It conflates {{w|ocean current}}s (the global flow of water) and {{w|electric current}}s (the movement of charged particles). Perhaps from the supposed ability to move the magnet through the charge, as opposed to the other way round. It invokes the "Laplace force", which is just a {{w|Lorentz force#Force on a current-carrying wire|technical variation}} of the Lorentzian one.
-=== The More Correct Explanation ===
+=== How it actually works ===
 [[File:Forces on sails for three points of sail.jpg|thumb|An indication of the forces on a sailboat in various directions relative to the wind direction. V<sub>T</sub> is the true velocity of the wind, V<sub>A</sub> is the apparent velocity, as seen by the moving boat. Various forces (F) arise from the way the wind hits the sail, which translate into the forward velocity of the boat, V<sub>B</sub>.]] The actual manner of how a boat is able to sail into the wind relies upon the way the wind hits the boat's angled (and curved) sail, producing forces that are divided between those in the direction the boat is heading and perpendicular to it. Sideways forces encounter resistance from the water, leaving a net motion forward, a direction through the water by which a boat hull is designed to more easily pass. This allows a boat to sail at an angle into the wind (though not directly into it), with the right use of sails. The same effect also allows you to travel faster ''with'' the wind, at a slight angle away from its direction, than if you just ran exactly in its direction; using the sail square on will limit you to going no faster (and usually significantly slower than) the wind that you are relying upon to push you, whereas an angled sail and boat track can convert the forces into greater speed than even the following wind.
@@ Line 36: / Line 43: @@
 ==Transcript==
-:[Four panels show a schematic sail boat, seen from above, to indicate how it can sail into the wind. In the first panel the boat is heading straight up in the panel. The sail is fixed at the bow and describes a slight curve going to the right of the boat and then curving to the left, ending close to the stern. The rudder can be seen behind the boat. Five arrows, pointing towards 4:30 on a clock face, are drawn at the top left part of the boat, indicating the direction of the wind. There is a frame above the drawing of the boat with text. And then the arrows are labeled, and small lines going to the sail and the hull of the boat connects with two more labels:]
+:[Four panels show a schematic sailboat, seen from above, to indicate how it can sail into the wind. In the first panel the boat is heading straight up in the panel. The sail is fixed at the bow and describes a slight curve going to the right of the boat and then curving to the left, ending close to the stern. The rudder can be seen behind the boat. Five arrows, pointing towards 4:30 on a clock face, are drawn at the top left part of the boat, indicating the direction of the wind. There is a frame above the drawing of the boat with text. And then the arrows are labeled, and small lines going to the sail and the hull of the boat connects with two more labels:]
 :How sailboats use physics to sail upwind:
 :Wind
@@ Line 42: / Line 49: @@
 :Sail
-:[In the second panel the boat is drawn similar to panel 1, but the wind arrow have been changed to showing how the wind now blows past the sail on either side. This is done with two lines of three arrows that goes on either side of the sail, and the second and third arrow bends to follow the curve of the sail. Charged ions are shown across both sides of the sail with positive on the left side of the sail, (over the hull of the boat) and negative on the right side, over the sea to the right and behind the boat. The positive charges are small + signs in circles and the negative minus signs in circles. Above the drawing there is the following text:]
+:[In the second panel the boat is drawn similar to panel 1, but the wind arrows have been changed to showing how the wind now blows past the sail on either side. This is done with two lines of three arrows that goes on either side of the sail, and the second and third arrow bends to follow the curve of the sail. Charged ions are shown across both sides of the sail with positive on the left side of the sail, (over the hull of the boat) and negative on the right side, over the sea to the right and behind the boat. The positive charges are small + signs in circles and the negative minus signs in circles. Above the drawing there is the following text:]
 :1. Wind passing over the sail strips away electrons via the triboelectric effect.

@@ Line 12: / Line 12: @@
 {{incomplete|This page was created by a wind-blown electron from a man on a boat. Don't remove this notice too soon.}}
-This comic starts off looking like a typical explanation of how {{w|sailboat}}s can travel upwind — a topic that continues to spark debate and refinement in physics circles. However, it quickly veers into a completely fictional and incorrect theory involving triboelectric charging and the Lorentz force, rather than referencing real mechanisms like {{w|airfoil}} aerodynamics.
+This comic starts off looking like a typical explanation of how {{w|sailboat}}s can travel upwind — a topic that continues to spark debate and refinement in physics circles. However, it quickly takes a strange tack into a completely fictional and incorrect theory involving triboelectric charging and the Lorentz force, rather than referencing real mechanisms like {{w|airfoil}} aerodynamics.
 This humor works at another level — most interaction of physical things at macro scale (humans and boat sized objects) are electromagnetic in nature.  So one unaware of sailing mechanics may start to explain the situation with electromagnetism, and could come to this line of thinking, but it is wrong. If we are to consider this, we find that either no force is appearing in the direction shown, or very little.

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:40, 20 May 2025
Line 25:		Line 25:

	The title text invokes further {{w\|technobabble}} to suggests using a magnetised {{w\|centreboard\|retractable keel}} to adjust the nature of the forces. It conflates {{w\|ocean current}}s (the global flow of water) and {{w\|electric current}}s (the movement of charged particles). Perhaps from the supposed ability to move the magnet through the charge, as opposed to the other way round. It invokes the "Laplace force", which is just a {{w\|Lorentz force#Force on a current-carrying wire\|technical variation}} of the Lorentzian one.		The title text invokes further {{w\|technobabble}} to suggests using a magnetised {{w\|centreboard\|retractable keel}} to adjust the nature of the forces. It conflates {{w\|ocean current}}s (the global flow of water) and {{w\|electric current}}s (the movement of charged particles). Perhaps from the supposed ability to move the magnet through the charge, as opposed to the other way round. It invokes the "Laplace force", which is just a {{w\|Lorentz force#Force on a current-carrying wire\|technical variation}} of the Lorentzian one.
		+
		+	Sailing into the wind was also the topic of [[3013: Kedging Cannon]].

	=== The More Correct Explanation ===		=== The More Correct Explanation ===

@@ Line 29: / Line 29: @@
 [[File:Forces on sails for three points of sail.jpg|thumb|An indication of the forces on a sailboat in various directions relative to the wind direction. V<sub>T</sub> is the true velocity of the wind, V<sub>A</sub> is the apparent velocity, as seen by the moving boat. Various forces (F) arise from the way the wind hits the sail, which translate into the forward velocity of the boat, V<sub>B</sub>.]] The actual manner of how a boat is able to sail into the wind relies upon the way the wind hits the boat's angled (and curved) sail, producing forces that are divided between those in the direction the boat is heading and perpendicular to it. Sideways forces encounter resistance from the water, leaving a net motion forward, a direction through the water by which a boat hull is designed to more easily pass. This allows a boat to sail at an angle into the wind (though not directly into it), with the right use of sails. The same effect also allows you to travel faster ''with'' the wind, at a slight angle away from its direction, than if you just ran exactly in its direction; using the sail square on will limit you to going no faster (and usually significantly slower than) the wind that you are relying upon to push you, whereas an angled sail and boat track can convert the forces into greater speed than even the following wind.
-Your speed of sailing perpendicular to the wind tends to be greater than that which you can achieve heading at any angle into the wind, but this is no use if you wish to sail to a destination directly in the direction the wind is coming from. Aiming at an angle into the wind and {{w|Tacking (sailing)|tacking}} (briefly use your existing speed to turn directly across the wind), lets you combine sets of aiming off to slightly one side of the wind and doing the same slightly to the other, as required to reach your destination. The expert sailor can choose the {{w|point of sail}} to the wind that makes for the fastest journey time, combining the possible speed and the necessary amount of additional distance. Similarly, turns ('{{w|jibe}}s') across the wind allow a more optimal passage to a directly downwind destination than running straight with it.
+Your speed of sailing perpendicular to the wind tends to be greater than that which you can achieve heading at any angle into the wind, but this is no use if you wish to sail to a destination directly where the wind is coming from. Aiming at an angle into the wind and {{w|Tacking (sailing)|tacking}} (briefly use your existing speed to turn directly across the wind), lets you combine sets of aiming off to slightly one side of the wind and doing the same slightly to the other, as required to reach your destination. The expert sailor can choose the {{w|point of sail}} to the wind that makes for the fastest journey time, combining the possible speed and the necessary amount of additional distance. Similarly, turns ('{{w|jibe}}s') across the wind allow a more optimal passage to a directly downwind destination than running straight with it.
 Supposing that the comic physics ''had'' been more capable of doing what it suggests, tacking/gibing could also be important concepts. With two sails made of different materials, one could unfurl that which is able to accumulate a positive charge (by losing electrons) or else another that accumulates a negative charge (by 'borrowing' electrons from the air). In this way, you could account for how the effective direction (and {{w|Magnetic declination|declination}}) of the magnetic field would be different for any given location, wind direction and intended destination and ''perhaps'' eventually make progress in whichever direction the vessel is required to go.

@@ Line 10: / Line 10: @@
 ==Explanation==
-{{incomplete|This page was created by a wind-blown electron. Don't remove this notice too soon.}}
+{{incomplete|This page was created by a wind-blown electron from a man on a boat. Don't remove this notice too soon.}}
 This comic starts off looking like a typical explanation of how sailboats can travel upwind — a topic that continues to spark debate and refinement in physics circles. However, it quickly veers into a completely fictional and incorrect theory involving triboelectric charging and the Lorentz force, rather than referencing real mechanisms like {{w|airfoil|aerodynamic lift}}.