Talk:2381: The True Name of the Bear - Revision history

172.70.86.15 at 18:31, 24 July 2024

2024-07-24T18:31:48Z

IcarusProblem at 17:25, 24 July 2024

2024-07-24T17:25:21Z

172.71.214.212 at 16:49, 29 May 2024

2024-05-29T16:49:12Z

172.71.214.212 at 16:48, 29 May 2024

2024-05-29T16:48:12Z

172.64.238.164 at 16:15, 23 March 2024

2024-03-23T16:15:06Z

108.162.215.85: fix link

2021-12-12T04:40:31Z

fix link

162.158.129.25: medjed

2021-12-12T04:02:20Z

medjed

172.70.130.211 at 17:39, 25 November 2021

2021-11-25T17:39:03Z

Koro Neil: What are these warnings warning us not to do, or telling us to do?

2021-06-22T03:51:51Z

What are these warnings warning us not to do, or telling us to do?

Koro Neil: What are these warnings warning us not to do, or telling us to do?

2021-06-22T03:50:49Z

What are these warnings warning us not to do, or telling us to do?

@@ Line 39: / Line 39: @@
 : So yes, there’s an awful lot wrong with the actual linguistics in this one. Which is very disappointing. :-( [[Special:Contributions/162.158.134.40|162.158.134.40]] 09:40, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 :: I'm surprised you wrote all that while somehow completely forgetting that these are reconstructions and thus not definitive. Case in point: Etymology online gives both ''*rtko'' https://www.etymonline.com/word/bear and ''*rkto-'' https://www.etymonline.com/word/arctic  (apparently it survives in the word 'arctic'. Who knew?) . [[Special:Contributions/172.71.214.212|172.71.214.212]] 16:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
-:::The fact that reconstructions of a proto-language can never be proven with certainty does not mean that one has the freedom to change them however one wants. We have abundant evidence that PIE thorn clusters were originally of the form *TK rather than *KT, both from internal reconstruction (*dʰegʷʰ > English "day" has a zero-grade of *dʰgʷʰey > Greek φθίνω) and from the comparative method, with the original form preserved in Tocharian and most importantly Anatolian. The metathesis of thorn clusters in the other branches is well-documented, and Latin "arctic" does not represent a retention of the original form but rather a metathesis common to most IE branches. Evidence for an alternative reconstruction of **rkto- would involve providing an actual linguistics paper rather than a webpage that does not even include the laryngeal (which, incidentally, is preserved along with the original thorn cluster in Hittite ḫartaggaš) or the palatovelar.
+:::The fact that reconstructions of a proto-language can never be proven with certainty does not mean that one has the freedom to change them however one wants. We have abundant evidence that PIE thorn clusters were originally of the form *TK rather than *KT, both from internal reconstruction (*dʰegʷʰ > English "day" has a zero-grade of *dʰgʷʰey > Greek φθίνω) and from the comparative method, with the original form preserved in Tocharian and most importantly Anatolian. The metathesis of thorn clusters in the other branches is well-documented, and Latin "arctic" does not represent a retention of the original form but rather a metathesis common to most IE branches. Evidence for an alternative reconstruction of **rkto- would involve providing an actual linguistics paper rather than a webpage that does not even include the laryngeal (which, incidentally, is preserved along with the original thorn cluster in Hittite ḫartaggaš) or the palatovelar. {{unsigned|IcarusProblem|17:25, 24 July 2024}}
 I bet a dollar that the long-lost English word for "bear" was "Voldemort". [[Special:Contributions/108.162.215.242|108.162.215.242]] 01:03, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 39: / Line 39: @@
 : So yes, there’s an awful lot wrong with the actual linguistics in this one. Which is very disappointing. :-( [[Special:Contributions/162.158.134.40|162.158.134.40]] 09:40, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 :: I'm surprised you wrote all that while somehow completely forgetting that these are reconstructions and thus not definitive. Case in point: Etymology online gives both ''*rtko'' https://www.etymonline.com/word/bear and ''*rkto-'' https://www.etymonline.com/word/arctic  (apparently it survives in the word 'arctic'. Who knew?) . [[Special:Contributions/172.71.214.212|172.71.214.212]] 16:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 I bet a dollar that the long-lost English word for "bear" was "Voldemort". [[Special:Contributions/108.162.215.242|108.162.215.242]] 01:03, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 38: / Line 38: @@
 : You’re absolutely correct. Not only is the thorn cluster backwards according to the most commonly accepted reconstruction, it also has the wrong velar (should be *k̑, not *k), AND the laryngeal is missing. The syllabicity marker on the *r is also missing, though the nature of the right-to-left syllabification rule means that the *r would at least automatically be syllabified anyway. This was the main thing that really bothered me about this comic, along with the fact that the expected English form would absolutely not be ''**arth'', but ''*urth'' (or perhaps just ''*ur'' (OE ''*urh-'').
 : So yes, there’s an awful lot wrong with the actual linguistics in this one. Which is very disappointing. :-( [[Special:Contributions/162.158.134.40|162.158.134.40]] 09:40, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
-:: I'm surprised you wrote all that while somehow completely forgetting that these are reconstructions and thus not definitive. Case in point: Etymology online gives both ''*rtko'' https://www.etymonline.com/word/bear and ''*rkto-'' https://www.etymonline.com/word/arctic . [[Special:Contributions/172.71.214.212|172.71.214.212]] 16:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
+:: I'm surprised you wrote all that while somehow completely forgetting that these are reconstructions and thus not definitive. Case in point: Etymology online gives both ''*rtko'' https://www.etymonline.com/word/bear and ''*rkto-'' https://www.etymonline.com/word/arctic  (apparently it survives in the word 'arctic'. Who knew?) . [[Special:Contributions/172.71.214.212|172.71.214.212]] 16:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 I bet a dollar that the long-lost English word for "bear" was "Voldemort". [[Special:Contributions/108.162.215.242|108.162.215.242]] 01:03, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 38: / Line 38: @@
 : You’re absolutely correct. Not only is the thorn cluster backwards according to the most commonly accepted reconstruction, it also has the wrong velar (should be *k̑, not *k), AND the laryngeal is missing. The syllabicity marker on the *r is also missing, though the nature of the right-to-left syllabification rule means that the *r would at least automatically be syllabified anyway. This was the main thing that really bothered me about this comic, along with the fact that the expected English form would absolutely not be ''**arth'', but ''*urth'' (or perhaps just ''*ur'' (OE ''*urh-'').
 : So yes, there’s an awful lot wrong with the actual linguistics in this one. Which is very disappointing. :-( [[Special:Contributions/162.158.134.40|162.158.134.40]] 09:40, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 I bet a dollar that the long-lost English word for "bear" was "Voldemort". [[Special:Contributions/108.162.215.242|108.162.215.242]] 01:03, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 29: / Line 29: @@
 ::: Being Russian, I van tell that "med" part means honey, but "ved" part is arhaic word for "know" (compare to "vedma" - witch - "woman, who knows things"). And ''medved'' is a next generation of euphemism - in old slavic bear's name was "ber" (Russian "berloga" - bear's lair) and it is now considered "true name".
 :::: Roughly, the 'honey-eater' etymology has the 'v' originating from "medu" being an u-stem and probably "ed" 'eating' lacking the prothetic 'j'. This wouldn't be possible in newer words and is counter-intuitive to modern speakers of most/all Slavic languages, it should shows how old is the word formation. Not sure about the detailed arguments for this etymology, but [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/medv%C4%9Bd%D1%8C wiktionary] has some good links. Even as a folk-etymology 'knowledgeable about honey' shows a more spiritual than fearful relation to bears, but the line can be thin. "berloga" and cognates on the other hand seem to be pretty unclear.
 :I've just been down a Wikipedia rabbit-hole, because of this information, to try to work out why I don't remember it being reported that Medvedev had resigned and replaced by Mishustin. (Or replaced ''with'' him, wherever he emerged from, ''by'' Putin, to be strictly accurate.). Probably we were more concerned about the Constitutional changes, then 'other things' hit the headlines. Not comic-related, but thank you for enlightening me on both linguistic and (as a side-effect) political subjects. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.158.26|162.158.158.26]] 16:39, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:39, 25 November 2021
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	Some links marked with the padlock symbol have a hovertext saying, "Warning: TV Tropes. See comic 609." I've seen this in other pages here. It's not clear to me what our reaction is supposed to be to these. Is it telling us that the link is unsafe to click on? (If that were meant, why not just remove the link?) Or is it telling us to click on the link to see what the warning actually is? [[User:Koro Neil\|Koro Neil]] ([[User talk:Koro Neil\|talk]]) 03:51, 22 June 2021 (UTC)		Some links marked with the padlock symbol have a hovertext saying, "Warning: TV Tropes. See comic 609." I've seen this in other pages here. It's not clear to me what our reaction is supposed to be to these. Is it telling us that the link is unsafe to click on? (If that were meant, why not just remove the link?) Or is it telling us to click on the link to see what the warning actually is? [[User:Koro Neil\|Koro Neil]] ([[User talk:Koro Neil\|talk]]) 03:51, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
		+	:It is meant to warn that you might get stuck in a wiki walk and be distracted, if I remember correctly. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.130.211\|172.70.130.211]] 17:39, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:51, 22 June 2021
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	In David Anthony - The Horse The Wheel and Language (2007) page 24 it's mentioned that speakers of the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language probably avoided speaking the name of the bear for ritual reasons		In David Anthony - The Horse The Wheel and Language (2007) page 24 it's mentioned that speakers of the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language probably avoided speaking the name of the bear for ritual reasons

−	Some ~~inks~~ marked with the padlock symbol have a hovertext saying, "Warning: TV Tropes. See comic 609." I've seen this in other pages here. It's not clear to me what our reaction is supposed to be to these. Is it telling us that the link is unsafe to click on? (If that were meant, why not just remove the link?) Or is it telling us to click on the link to see what the warning actually is? [[User:Koro Neil\|Koro Neil]] ([[User talk:Koro Neil\|talk]]) 03:50, 22 June 2021 (UTC)	+	Some links marked with the padlock symbol have a hovertext saying, "Warning: TV Tropes. See comic 609." I've seen this in other pages here. It's not clear to me what our reaction is supposed to be to these. Is it telling us that the link is unsafe to click on? (If that were meant, why not just remove the link?) Or is it telling us to click on the link to see what the warning actually is? [[User:Koro Neil\|Koro Neil]] ([[User talk:Koro Neil\|talk]]) 03:51, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:50, 22 June 2021
Line 56:		Line 56:

	In David Anthony - The Horse The Wheel and Language (2007) page 24 it's mentioned that speakers of the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language probably avoided speaking the name of the bear for ritual reasons		In David Anthony - The Horse The Wheel and Language (2007) page 24 it's mentioned that speakers of the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language probably avoided speaking the name of the bear for ritual reasons
		+
		+	Some inks marked with the padlock symbol have a hovertext saying, "Warning: TV Tropes. See comic 609." I've seen this in other pages here. It's not clear to me what our reaction is supposed to be to these. Is it telling us that the link is unsafe to click on? (If that were meant, why not just remove the link?) Or is it telling us to click on the link to see what the warning actually is? [[User:Koro Neil\|Koro Neil]] ([[User talk:Koro Neil\|talk]]) 03:50, 22 June 2021 (UTC)