Talk:2536: Wirecutter - Revision history

MeZimm at 17:06, 7 March 2025

2025-03-07T17:06:17Z

172.70.86.80 at 16:45, 29 March 2024

2024-03-29T16:45:49Z

Apollo11 at 15:57, 29 March 2024

2024-03-29T15:57:51Z

Apollo11 at 15:53, 29 March 2024

2024-03-29T15:53:36Z

172.70.162.19 at 15:25, 29 March 2024

2024-03-29T15:25:59Z

172.70.91.61: Restoring removed comments.

2024-03-29T14:46:59Z

Restoring removed comments.

Apollo11 at 14:42, 29 March 2024

2024-03-29T14:42:56Z

Apollo11 at 14:38, 29 March 2024

2024-03-29T14:38:23Z

172.70.90.173 at 06:45, 3 November 2022

2022-11-03T06:45:57Z

172.69.34.80 at 01:48, 3 November 2022

2022-11-03T01:48:15Z

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 Feels like there should be a line in there about how religion is itself often "that which determines what is valued" and therefore very hard to treat objectively. So, for example, if your religion taught that discipline was inherently good, you would think less of another religion that specifically warned against the dangers of excessive discipline. Meanwhile, a member of that religion might think YOUR religion was worse, because - according to the tenets of THEIR religion - you put TOO MUCH emphasis on discipline, while you think your emphasis is correct and THEY are wrong for not having it.
 Now, granted, people might want different things from their technology - one person might want user-friendliness, another might value greater customizability - but religion is different in that it, in itself, informs our understandings of "what is valuable". It would be like if Apple users actively began extolling the benefits of user-friendliness BECAUSE they are Apple users and Apple itself is what taught them to value user-friendliness, while Linux users were originally indifferent but BECAME fans of customizability BECAUSE they used Linux. (And yes, there can be cult-like elements of both fandoms, but hopefully the distinction I'm drawing here is reasonably clear: religion tells you what is valuable, technology does not.)
+(Also, why all the Judaism-specific stuff now?) [[User:MeZimm|MeZimm]] ([[User talk:MeZimm|talk]]) 16:42, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 Rather than picking one religion - join them all.  Slag-blah takes a militant agnostic approach (we don't know, and neither do you).  So they believe in/practice all religions (one a day for a year, so their calendar is 7,823 days long).  From [https://web.archive.org/web/20150428210028/http://www.airshipentertainment.com/buckcomic.php?date=20071222 Buck Godot Zap Gun for Hire - Learning about Slag-blah  by Phil Foglio, Dec. 2007]  Sadly hard to find online, but here is the relevant page from the archive.  [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.167|108.162.245.167]] 19:18, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

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 :You can know your own heart, and believe you know the hearts of others (and, indeed, God in whatever form you believe exists), but faith is a tricky thing. Could be as solid as a rock, easily windblown into a handy corner, just like autumn leaves, or as ultimately fragile as a cobweb, if not as intangible and transient as a dream. And, if you want my opinion, all of these can (and do) co-exist. Where there's trouble is where the ideology (with or without any actual belief) violently tries to create a lock-step culture in its own strict image. You can't truly make (or change) genuine beliefs, in others, especially if you don't believe it yourself.
 :One can only be whatever it is that one believes is right. If you're lucky, that may not include making compromises for outwards appearances. And, if you're kind, that will not mean forcing others to compromise on your behalf. That should apply whatever shade of religion (or none) you subscribe to. But there's a world (at least!) of possibilities out there, and you are always a product of your own particular lived life. I can only hope that you be happy with that. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.19|172.70.162.19]] 15:25, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
+::Your right I don't know what other religons are like. I can only speak for my religon and my experiences. And yes, many religions (or even demoninations) arent very reaccepting or forgiving. A lot of people have left and been unable to return. Or somepeople just don't return, I know several people who've done that. My point wasn't that even if someone leaves their religion that they'll come back, it was that people do leave and change religions. Those people I talked about changed religions twice, thats why I brought it up.
-Your right I don't know what other religons are like. I can only speak for my religon and my experiences. And yes, many religions (or even demoninations) arent very reaccepting or forgiving. A lot of people have left and been unable to return. Or somepeople just don't return, I know several people who've done that. My point wasn't that even if someone leaves their religion that they'll come back, it was that people do leave and change religions. Those people I talked about changed religions twice, thats why I brought it up. And I 100% agree with you that nobody should force their opinion on anyone. I would never try to pressure anyone to belive anything, or yell at anyone for beliving in a certain religion.[[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 15:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
+::And I 100% agree with you that nobody should force their opinion on anyone. I would never try to pressure anyone to belive anything, or yell at anyone for beliving in a certain religion.[[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 15:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
-Edit: When I said most people in my first message, I meant most people in my denomination, I have no idea what other religions are like and I wouldn't try and speak on their behalf and risk getting the information incorrect.[[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 15:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
+:::Was mainly responding to "most teens or college students fall away from God and later in life they come back". I might not argue that they fall (or move) away from their household's interpretation (as a teen, you're biologically programmed to look at things differently than you did when younger, and ''moving away'' to college also takes you outside your 'silo' to potentially expose you to alternate viewpoints - anyone who doesn't, I'd consider 'indoctrinated', rather than merely lovingly guided). That "most come back", I'm not sure about. I'm not saying that most will abandon all faith, or most will go to a new(ly discovered) one, but "back" is relative. Even those broadly settling back in the same 'spirit' may have evolved their faith (e.g., their opinions on evolution!). Greater or lesser fervency.

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 :One can only be whatever it is that one believes is right. If you're lucky, that may not include making compromises for outwards appearances. And, if you're kind, that will not mean forcing others to compromise on your behalf. That should apply whatever shade of religion (or none) you subscribe to. But there's a world (at least!) of possibilities out there, and you are always a product of your own particular lived life. I can only hope that you be happy with that. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.19|172.70.162.19]] 15:25, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
-Your right I don't know what other religons are like. I can only speak for my religon and my experiences. And yes, many religions (or even demoninations) arent very reaccepting or forgiving. A lot of people have left and been unable to return. Or somepeople just don't return, I know several people who've done that. My point wasn't that even if someone leaves their religion that they'll come back, it was that people do leave and change religions. Those people I talked about changed religions twice, thats why I brought it up.
+Your right I don't know what other religons are like. I can only speak for my religon and my experiences. And yes, many religions (or even demoninations) arent very reaccepting or forgiving. A lot of people have left and been unable to return. Or somepeople just don't return, I know several people who've done that. My point wasn't that even if someone leaves their religion that they'll come back, it was that people do leave and change religions. Those people I talked about changed religions twice, thats why I brought it up. And I 100% agree with you that nobody should force their opinion on anyone. I would never try to pressure anyone to belive anything, or yell at anyone for beliving in a certain religion.[[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 15:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
-: And I 100% agree with you that nobody should force their opinion on anyone. I would never try to pressure anyone to belive anything, or yell at anyone for beliving in a certain religion.[[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 15:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
+Edit: When I said most people in my first message, I meant most people in my denomination, I have no idea what other religions are like and I wouldn't try and speak on their behalf and risk getting the information incorrect.[[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 15:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:53, 29 March 2024
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	:You can know your own heart, and believe you know the hearts of others (and, indeed, God in whatever form you believe exists), but faith is a tricky thing. Could be as solid as a rock, easily windblown into a handy corner, just like autumn leaves, or as ultimately fragile as a cobweb, if not as intangible and transient as a dream. And, if you want my opinion, all of these can (and do) co-exist. Where there's trouble is where the ideology (with or without any actual belief) violently tries to create a lock-step culture in its own strict image. You can't truly make (or change) genuine beliefs, in others, especially if you don't believe it yourself.		:You can know your own heart, and believe you know the hearts of others (and, indeed, God in whatever form you believe exists), but faith is a tricky thing. Could be as solid as a rock, easily windblown into a handy corner, just like autumn leaves, or as ultimately fragile as a cobweb, if not as intangible and transient as a dream. And, if you want my opinion, all of these can (and do) co-exist. Where there's trouble is where the ideology (with or without any actual belief) violently tries to create a lock-step culture in its own strict image. You can't truly make (or change) genuine beliefs, in others, especially if you don't believe it yourself.
	:One can only be whatever it is that one believes is right. If you're lucky, that may not include making compromises for outwards appearances. And, if you're kind, that will not mean forcing others to compromise on your behalf. That should apply whatever shade of religion (or none) you subscribe to. But there's a world (at least!) of possibilities out there, and you are always a product of your own particular lived life. I can only hope that you be happy with that. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.19\|172.70.162.19]] 15:25, 29 March 2024 (UTC)		:One can only be whatever it is that one believes is right. If you're lucky, that may not include making compromises for outwards appearances. And, if you're kind, that will not mean forcing others to compromise on your behalf. That should apply whatever shade of religion (or none) you subscribe to. But there's a world (at least!) of possibilities out there, and you are always a product of your own particular lived life. I can only hope that you be happy with that. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.19\|172.70.162.19]] 15:25, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
		+
		+	Your right I don't know what other religons are like. I can only speak for my religon and my experiences. And yes, many religions (or even demoninations) arent very reaccepting or forgiving. A lot of people have left and been unable to return. Or somepeople just don't return, I know several people who've done that. My point wasn't that even if someone leaves their religion that they'll come back, it was that people do leave and change religions. Those people I talked about changed religions twice, thats why I brought it up.
		+	: And I 100% agree with you that nobody should force their opinion on anyone. I would never try to pressure anyone to belive anything, or yell at anyone for beliving in a certain religion.[[User:Apollo11\|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11\|talk]]) 15:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:25, 29 March 2024
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	Well Christans, Jews and Muslims all belive Moses to be a prophet. And Jews and Christans (and maybe Muslims??) worship the same God(kinda, Christans belive Christ is God as a human, and Jews say that Christ is a false prophet.). So everything before 3 B.C. they agree on, thats why they use the same religous texts. However after Christ died, 27 new texts were created talking about his life, death, and teachings. Obvously the Jews dont use these texts so thats where they differ. Just wanted to clear that up, they are very different religions and belifs, they just all agree on what happened before Christ. Also the part where it says in the explanation about how that most people don't change their religion, I'm not sure if thats true for other religions, but my religon(non-demoninational Christian) is all about choosing wether or not to accept God into your heart. Also most teens or college students fall away from God and later in life they come back (Quite a few of them, in fact, my youth pastor went through the same thing). My pastor grew up in a house that practiced "magic", and most defently wasnt taught religon, but in his later years he became a Christian. [[User:Apollo11\|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11\|talk]]) 14:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)		Well Christans, Jews and Muslims all belive Moses to be a prophet. And Jews and Christans (and maybe Muslims??) worship the same God(kinda, Christans belive Christ is God as a human, and Jews say that Christ is a false prophet.). So everything before 3 B.C. they agree on, thats why they use the same religous texts. However after Christ died, 27 new texts were created talking about his life, death, and teachings. Obvously the Jews dont use these texts so thats where they differ. Just wanted to clear that up, they are very different religions and belifs, they just all agree on what happened before Christ. Also the part where it says in the explanation about how that most people don't change their religion, I'm not sure if thats true for other religions, but my religon(non-demoninational Christian) is all about choosing wether or not to accept God into your heart. Also most teens or college students fall away from God and later in life they come back (Quite a few of them, in fact, my youth pastor went through the same thing). My pastor grew up in a house that practiced "magic", and most defently wasnt taught religon, but in his later years he became a Christian. [[User:Apollo11\|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11\|talk]]) 14:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
		+	:Religion is ...[https://brandonvogt.com/funniest-religious-joke-of-all-time/ complicated]. And it might help to realise that what you experience as 'most people do this' might be a bit skewed towards only what your experiences have been. I think you're mostly amongst practicing Christians where you find that those who left ''and returned'' seem to show that people 'leave and return'. Others may have communities who shun returnees, and/or where leavers (perhaps of a distorted belief system) see absolutely no reason to return to the now obviously broken system. Some people grew up without a great faith, but find themselves drawn to one, fervently (perhaps your pastor was one, I don't know what you/he means by "magic", possibly he was in a synchratic system so instead just rejected one bit of his family's faith and concentrated on the rest). There are those who have taken up surprisingly different creeds from where they started off. People might also have been brought up as essentially secular and ''remain'' secular (give or take a 'social nod' towards the local spin on communal religion, but as habit rather than true belief).
		+	:You can know your own heart, and believe you know the hearts of others (and, indeed, God in whatever form you believe exists), but faith is a tricky thing. Could be as solid as a rock, easily windblown into a handy corner, just like autumn leaves, or as ultimately fragile as a cobweb, if not as intangible and transient as a dream. And, if you want my opinion, all of these can (and do) co-exist. Where there's trouble is where the ideology (with or without any actual belief) violently tries to create a lock-step culture in its own strict image. You can't truly make (or change) genuine beliefs, in others, especially if you don't believe it yourself.
		+	:One can only be whatever it is that one believes is right. If you're lucky, that may not include making compromises for outwards appearances. And, if you're kind, that will not mean forcing others to compromise on your behalf. That should apply whatever shade of religion (or none) you subscribe to. But there's a world (at least!) of possibilities out there, and you are always a product of your own particular lived life. I can only hope that you be happy with that. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.19\|172.70.162.19]] 15:25, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

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 I really want this article to be real. ----Dave
 :  Me too.  I did something similar in my early 20s, and feel such an article honestly done would be a great help to many.  In fact, the current description is slightly inaccurate- in that even lifelong practitioners, do usually have a wandering time in early adulthood if not given direction.  Such an article would give some direction.[[User:Seebert|Seebert]] ([[User talk:Seebert|talk]]) 15:03, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 The major problem with trying multiple religions is that to fully test a religion you need to die - and most people only die once, with the ability to die multiple times being exclusive feature of small number of religions. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 04:49, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
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 The assumptions here really need pruning. For starters, groups *exist* to do exactly what is suggested here: http://shipoffools.com/mystery-worshipper/ being a perfect example. Just as brand loyalty to car manufacturers doesn't prevent reviews, neither does loyalty to religions. And while the claim that all wars are purely economic has been debunked, the idea of purely religious wars will get similar mocking from historians. The claim of exclusivity is absurd, given that Christians use the Jewish scriptures, and Muslims regard both Moses and Jesus as prophets; the Messianic Jews are the most famous example of belonging to two religions.
 Well Christans, Jews and Muslims all belive Moses to be a prophet. And Jews and Christans (and maybe Muslims??) worship the same God(kinda, Christans belive Christ is God as a human, and Jews say that Christ is a false prophet.). So everything before 3 B.C. they agree on, thats why they use the same religous texts. However after Christ died, 27 new texts were created talking about his life, death, and teachings. Obvously the Jews dont use these texts so thats where they differ. Just wanted to clear that up, they are very different religions and belifs, they just all agree on what happened before Christ. Also the part where it says in the explanation about how that most people don't change their religion, I'm not sure if thats true for other religions, but my religon(non-demoninational Christian) is all about choosing wether or not to accept God into your heart. Also most teens or college students fall away from God and later in life they come back (Quite a few of them, in fact, my youth pastor went through the same thing). My  pastor grew up in a house that practiced "magic", and most defently wasnt taught religon, but in his later years he became a Christian. [[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 14:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:42, 29 March 2024
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	The assumptions here really need pruning. For starters, groups exist to do exactly what is suggested here: http://shipoffools.com/mystery-worshipper/ being a perfect example. Just as brand loyalty to car manufacturers doesn't prevent reviews, neither does loyalty to religions. And while the claim that all wars are purely economic has been debunked, the idea of purely religious wars will get similar mocking from historians. The claim of exclusivity is absurd, given that Christians use the Jewish scriptures, and Muslims regard both Moses and Jesus as prophets; the Messianic Jews are the most famous example of belonging to two religions.		The assumptions here really need pruning. For starters, groups exist to do exactly what is suggested here: http://shipoffools.com/mystery-worshipper/ being a perfect example. Just as brand loyalty to car manufacturers doesn't prevent reviews, neither does loyalty to religions. And while the claim that all wars are purely economic has been debunked, the idea of purely religious wars will get similar mocking from historians. The claim of exclusivity is absurd, given that Christians use the Jewish scriptures, and Muslims regard both Moses and Jesus as prophets; the Messianic Jews are the most famous example of belonging to two religions.

−	Well Christans, Jews and Muslims all belive Moses to be a prophet. And Jews and Christans (and maybe Muslims??) worship the same God(kinda, Christans belive Christ is God as a human, and Jews say that Christ is a false prophet.). So everything before 3 B.C. they agree on, thats why they use the same religous texts. However after Christ died, 27 new texts were created talking about his life, death, and teachings. Obvously the Jews dont use these texts so thats where they differ. Just wanted to clear that up, they are very different religions and belifs, they just all agree on what happened before Christ. Also the part where it says in the explanation about how that most people don't change their religion, I'm not sure if thats true for other religions, but my religon(non-demoninational Christian) is all about choosing wether or not to accept it. Also most teens or college students fall away from God and later in life they come back (Quite a few of them, in fact, my youth pastor went through the same thing). My pastor grew up in a house that practiced "magic", and most defently wasnt taught religon, but in his later years he became a Christian. [[User:Apollo11\|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11\|talk]]) 14:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)	+	Well Christans, Jews and Muslims all belive Moses to be a prophet. And Jews and Christans (and maybe Muslims??) worship the same God(kinda, Christans belive Christ is God as a human, and Jews say that Christ is a false prophet.). So everything before 3 B.C. they agree on, thats why they use the same religous texts. However after Christ died, 27 new texts were created talking about his life, death, and teachings. Obvously the Jews dont use these texts so thats where they differ. Just wanted to clear that up, they are very different religions and belifs, they just all agree on what happened before Christ. Also the part where it says in the explanation about how that most people don't change their religion, I'm not sure if thats true for other religions, but my religon(non-demoninational Christian) is all about choosing wether or not to accept God into your heart. Also most teens or college students fall away from God and later in life they come back (Quite a few of them, in fact, my youth pastor went through the same thing). My pastor grew up in a house that practiced "magic", and most defently wasnt taught religon, but in his later years he became a Christian. [[User:Apollo11\|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11\|talk]]) 14:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

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	:Huh? Mystery worshipper isn't about reviewing religions but different congregations of the same religion (at least if we consider Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox etc. all part of the same religion, which many do). This is a much easier (and less self-defeating) task than what the comic suggests.--[[Special:Contributions/172.69.34.80\|172.69.34.80]] 01:48, 3 November 2022 (UTC)		:Huh? Mystery worshipper isn't about reviewing religions but different congregations of the same religion (at least if we consider Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox etc. all part of the same religion, which many do). This is a much easier (and less self-defeating) task than what the comic suggests.--[[Special:Contributions/172.69.34.80\|172.69.34.80]] 01:48, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
		+	::"...which many do..."? It depends upon [https://upjoke.com/heretic-jokes who you ask]... (Multiple versions there of the one that I mean!) [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.173\|172.70.90.173]] 06:45, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:48, 3 November 2022
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	The assumptions here really need pruning. For starters, groups exist to do exactly what is suggested here: http://shipoffools.com/mystery-worshipper/ being a perfect example. Just as brand loyalty to car manufacturers doesn't prevent reviews, neither does loyalty to religions. And while the claim that all wars are purely economic has been debunked, the idea of purely religious wars will get similar mocking from historians. The claim of exclusivity is absurd, given that Christians use the Jewish scriptures, and Muslims regard both Moses and Jesus as prophets; the Messianic Jews are the most famous example of belonging to two religions.		The assumptions here really need pruning. For starters, groups exist to do exactly what is suggested here: http://shipoffools.com/mystery-worshipper/ being a perfect example. Just as brand loyalty to car manufacturers doesn't prevent reviews, neither does loyalty to religions. And while the claim that all wars are purely economic has been debunked, the idea of purely religious wars will get similar mocking from historians. The claim of exclusivity is absurd, given that Christians use the Jewish scriptures, and Muslims regard both Moses and Jesus as prophets; the Messianic Jews are the most famous example of belonging to two religions.
		+
		+	:Huh? Mystery worshipper isn't about reviewing religions but different congregations of the same religion (at least if we consider Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox etc. all part of the same religion, which many do). This is a much easier (and less self-defeating) task than what the comic suggests.--[[Special:Contributions/172.69.34.80\|172.69.34.80]] 01:48, 3 November 2022 (UTC)