Talk:2657: Complex Vowels - Revision history

78.144.255.82: More than a third of a year pause? ;)

2025-11-30T01:09:34Z

More than a third of a year pause? ;)

StepSquadStepped at 00:49, 30 November 2025

2025-11-30T00:49:23Z

SMGmsgsgd at 19:46, 4 July 2025

2025-07-04T19:46:42Z

User 8496351 at 14:44, 20 June 2025

2025-06-20T14:44:29Z

172.71.118.249 at 11:26, 20 November 2024

2024-11-20T11:26:56Z

Certified nqh at 16:53, 11 September 2023

2023-09-11T16:53:03Z

JakubNarebski at 08:50, 27 May 2023

2023-05-27T08:50:50Z

Heleatunda at 01:16, 23 November 2022

2022-11-23T01:16:27Z

Heleatunda at 01:11, 23 November 2022

2022-11-23T01:11:08Z

172.70.91.78 at 11:52, 15 August 2022

2022-08-15T11:52:01Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:09, 30 November 2025
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	The closest we have to Complex Vowels is the AI-only languages, like GibberLink. AI's talk in series of rapid beeps and boops, which reduces compute costs by 90% and cuts communication time by 80%. In other words - GibberLink is more comprehensible and fast than human languages. The problem is: GibberLink can only be used or understood by AI's; human vocal cords are incapable of making the required sounds for GibberLink. --[[User:SMGmsgsgd\|SMGmsgsgd]] ([[User talk:SMGmsgsgd\|talk]]) 19:46, 4 July 2025 (UTC)		The closest we have to Complex Vowels is the AI-only languages, like GibberLink. AI's talk in series of rapid beeps and boops, which reduces compute costs by 90% and cuts communication time by 80%. In other words - GibberLink is more comprehensible and fast than human languages. The problem is: GibberLink can only be used or understood by AI's; human vocal cords are incapable of making the required sounds for GibberLink. --[[User:SMGmsgsgd\|SMGmsgsgd]] ([[User talk:SMGmsgsgd\|talk]]) 19:46, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

−	Also: I have some new complex vowels: Ƹ, ⱷ, Ꞇ, Ᵹ, ꭃ, ₿, ✂	+	Also: I have some new complex vowels: Ƹ, ⱷ, Ꞇ, Ᵹ, ꭃ, ₿, ✂ {{unsigned\|StepSquadStepped\|00:49, 30 November 2025}}

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 <!--Please sign your posts with ~~~~ and don't delete this text. New comments should be added at the bottom.-->
 Spoken symbol bears resemblance to 🜏, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%9F%9C%8F
 :Not really, it's closer to 'əG.' [[Special:Contributions/172.69.33.25|172.69.33.25]] 01:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
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 The closest we have to Complex Vowels is the AI-only languages, like GibberLink. AI's talk in series of rapid beeps and boops, which reduces compute costs by 90% and cuts communication time by 80%. In other words - GibberLink is more comprehensible and fast than human languages. The problem is: GibberLink can only be used or understood by AI's; human vocal cords are incapable of making the required sounds for GibberLink. --[[User:SMGmsgsgd|SMGmsgsgd]] ([[User talk:SMGmsgsgd|talk]]) 19:46, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:46, 4 July 2025
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	Complex vowels could appear in transapient language. In future, humans could invent some sort of super-intelligence; either godlike AI (descendant of self-improving AGI), modified-to-be-smarter humans (e.g. either "big meks" with 10x bigger brain and hulking body to carry that brain capable of ripping APC into shreds - or semi-immobile building-sized brain, towed around by dump truck or intercontinental missile carrier), or merged overmind (brains and machines alike connected into single computation network, smarter than sum of it's parts; a big smart super-brain made of milliards of tiny stupid brains). It would transcend humans at least as much, as modern humans transcend ''australopithecus'' - and likely transcend modern humans as much, as normal humans transcend microbes, if not more. As such, their method of communication would transcend ours, like our communication methods transcend those of animals. Therefore, their language would be so complex and complicated, what normal human's brains would boil in attempt to comprehend the speech of godlike super-intelligences (though, super-intelligences could switch to low brutish language of "normals" if needed - just like normal humans can switch to animalistic barking and grunting). --[[User:User 8496351\|User 8496351]] ([[User talk:User 8496351\|talk]]) 14:44, 20 June 2025 (UTC)		Complex vowels could appear in transapient language. In future, humans could invent some sort of super-intelligence; either godlike AI (descendant of self-improving AGI), modified-to-be-smarter humans (e.g. either "big meks" with 10x bigger brain and hulking body to carry that brain capable of ripping APC into shreds - or semi-immobile building-sized brain, towed around by dump truck or intercontinental missile carrier), or merged overmind (brains and machines alike connected into single computation network, smarter than sum of it's parts; a big smart super-brain made of milliards of tiny stupid brains). It would transcend humans at least as much, as modern humans transcend ''australopithecus'' - and likely transcend modern humans as much, as normal humans transcend microbes, if not more. As such, their method of communication would transcend ours, like our communication methods transcend those of animals. Therefore, their language would be so complex and complicated, what normal human's brains would boil in attempt to comprehend the speech of godlike super-intelligences (though, super-intelligences could switch to low brutish language of "normals" if needed - just like normal humans can switch to animalistic barking and grunting). --[[User:User 8496351\|User 8496351]] ([[User talk:User 8496351\|talk]]) 14:44, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
		+
		+	The closest we have to Complex Vowels is the AI-only languages, like GibberLink. AI's talk in series of rapid beeps and boops, which reduces compute costs by 90% and cuts communication time by 80%. In other words - GibberLink is more comprehensible and fast than human languages. The problem is: GibberLink can only be used or understood by AI's; human vocal cords are incapable of making the required sounds for GibberLink. --[[User:SMGmsgsgd\|SMGmsgsgd]] ([[User talk:SMGmsgsgd\|talk]]) 19:46, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:44, 20 June 2025
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	:Or you could consider, as you say, a limited scale of 0..1 being the distance of the tongue-tip between roof-touching and floor-touching (-1 would be a tongue ''embedded'' in whichever surface is zero, somehow phased through and creating a 'nevative cavity' of resonance, somehow, and an i-ward position would be... Well, not 'sideways' (though that does change things) but ''hyper''-sideways (again those other dimensions, probably requiring muscles/etc we don't normally consider), and all that implies.		:Or you could consider, as you say, a limited scale of 0..1 being the distance of the tongue-tip between roof-touching and floor-touching (-1 would be a tongue ''embedded'' in whichever surface is zero, somehow phased through and creating a 'nevative cavity' of resonance, somehow, and an i-ward position would be... Well, not 'sideways' (though that does change things) but ''hyper''-sideways (again those other dimensions, probably requiring muscles/etc we don't normally consider), and all that implies.
	:...that's if you want my assumptions about how an entirely ficticious and frankly esoteric scenario might 'really' be implemented. I won't say it's the way it ''would'' be, and there are limely many other (mis)interpretations of how it might happen, these were just my first thoughts on initially reading the comic (but it used less words in my head, as I could more easily imagine the necessary illustrative diagrams that did most of the heavy lifting). [[Special:Contributions/172.70.91.78\|172.70.91.78]] 11:52, 15 August 2022 (UTC)		:...that's if you want my assumptions about how an entirely ficticious and frankly esoteric scenario might 'really' be implemented. I won't say it's the way it ''would'' be, and there are limely many other (mis)interpretations of how it might happen, these were just my first thoughts on initially reading the comic (but it used less words in my head, as I could more easily imagine the necessary illustrative diagrams that did most of the heavy lifting). [[Special:Contributions/172.70.91.78\|172.70.91.78]] 11:52, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
		+
		+	Complex vowels could appear in transapient language. In future, humans could invent some sort of super-intelligence; either godlike AI (descendant of self-improving AGI), modified-to-be-smarter humans (e.g. either "big meks" with 10x bigger brain and hulking body to carry that brain capable of ripping APC into shreds - or semi-immobile building-sized brain, towed around by dump truck or intercontinental missile carrier), or merged overmind (brains and machines alike connected into single computation network, smarter than sum of it's parts; a big smart super-brain made of milliards of tiny stupid brains). It would transcend humans at least as much, as modern humans transcend ''australopithecus'' - and likely transcend modern humans as much, as normal humans transcend microbes, if not more. As such, their method of communication would transcend ours, like our communication methods transcend those of animals. Therefore, their language would be so complex and complicated, what normal human's brains would boil in attempt to comprehend the speech of godlike super-intelligences (though, super-intelligences could switch to low brutish language of "normals" if needed - just like normal humans can switch to animalistic barking and grunting). --[[User:User 8496351\|User 8496351]] ([[User talk:User 8496351\|talk]]) 14:44, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

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 Reminds me of ''[https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/54431070-battle-of-the-linguist-mages Battle of the Linguist Mages]'' - Punctuation marks are alien invaders from another dimension, and magic consists of pronouncing "power morphemes" (assuming learning them doesn't drive you mad, first).  --[[User:Bobson|Bobson]] ([[User talk:Bobson|talk]]) 02:43, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 The symbol reminds me of the {{w|Mandelbrot Set}} but turned on its side. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.93.43|172.70.93.43]] 07:17, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
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 You could do something like this comic with the embeddings of a language model trained on IPA and human responses. Stuff like https://towardsdatascience.com/introduction-to-word-embedding-and-word2vec-652d0c2060fa  http://www.isle.illinois.edu/speech_web_lg/pubs/2021/gao2021zero.pdf . A speech generating reinforcement learning system rewarded on human response would almost certainly discover complex vowels: sounds humans recognise partly, possibly impossible mixes of normal vowels, that produce erratic or novel human behavior. This has likely happened in some kind of marketing or attention research. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.110.237|172.70.110.237]] 19:20, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 : To add on to this, when playing with or demoing powerful neural networks, people often give the networks impossible prompts (like dall-e’s original example of an armchair in the shape of an avocado, a contradiction as avocados are never shaped like something that is a chair) —- and surprisingly a strong model will actually produce a result humans believe meets the request. This is like the example of “x in fire" —- mainstream neural networks usually do not reject input, they just solve it the best they can, producing an output that best matches everything they learned, or is an extrapolation from what they learned along their internal dimensions. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.110.237|172.70.110.237]] 19:26, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 "the properties of complex numbers could conceivably support representing physiological features of the vocal tract" - not sure about this - the properties of complex numbers stem from imaginary numbers being defined in relation to the square root of -1 - it's not obvious how a value of -1 would have any meaning in vocalspace (since it's a limited scale, not a continuous plane), never mind its square root, so how would the interactions between real and imaginary numbers read across to those between tongue movements and other vocal tract features? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.223|172.70.90.223]] 10:10, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

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 sscchhwwaa is easy, say it like the x in "fire" and the silent p in "bath"[[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.13|172.70.85.13]] 21:42, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 :What? There is no 'x' in "fire." [[Special:Contributions/172.69.33.25|172.69.33.25]] 01:17, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 Ideas: bellows-, reed-, and lucite-based voiced phone production tracts typical in science museums; {{w|diphone}}s as an alternative to phomemes (a diphone is the second half of one phoneme followed by the first half of the next -- NOT two adjacent phomemes as the Wikipedia article claims. Two adjacent phomemes are a biphone, not a diphone); the relationship of the position of the tongue in two dimensional place &times; closedeness space to the fundamental and second {{w|formant}} frequencies of speech audio; {{w|diphthong}}s; {{w|Mel-frequency cepstrum|cepstral}} representation such as {{w|MFCC|mel-frequency ceptstral coefficients}}; and {{w|Zalgo text}} IPA. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.206.213|172.70.206.213]] 22:41, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

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 :I wonder if Randall is doing this similarly to the way physicists present space-time diagrams with only 2 dimensions of space. We can visualize 3 dimensions using projections on 2-dimensional images, but it's hard to visualize 4 dimensions. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 15:18, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 ::If you can't visualize 4-D, play tennis. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.34.58|172.69.34.58]] 03:15, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 This linguist character has appeared 3 times now. Will there be a new character page dedicated to Gretchen or "The Linguist"? [[Special:Contributions/172.69.33.225|172.69.33.225]] 00:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

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 : This is the best I could do ə ̯̣̌̄̊̇c̵. I added the zalgo marks to a narrow no-break space in between the schwa and a "c" with a line over it (there's no reverse schwa apparently). Obviously it's not a perfect match, but I think that's sort of the point of this comic. [[User:RDiMartino|RDiMartino]] ([[User talk:RDiMartino|talk]]) 15:31, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
-ꬱ̯̣̌̄̊̇ would work if only I could get the diacritics centered.
+: ꬱ̯̣̌̄̊̇ would work if only I could get the diacritics centered.
-[[User:Heleatunda|Heleatunda]] ([[User talk:Heleatunda|talk]]) 01:11, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
+[[User:Heleatunda|Heleatunda]] ([[User talk:Heleatunda|talk]]) 01:16, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
 Someone please remind me how to Zalgo a top horizontal bar over √-1. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.211.134|172.70.211.134]] 02:34, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:11, 23 November 2022
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	: This is the best I could do ə ̯̣̌̄̊̇c̵. I added the zalgo marks to a narrow no-break space in between the schwa and a "c" with a line over it (there's no reverse schwa apparently). Obviously it's not a perfect match, but I think that's sort of the point of this comic. [[User:RDiMartino\|RDiMartino]] ([[User talk:RDiMartino\|talk]]) 15:31, 12 August 2022 (UTC)		: This is the best I could do ə ̯̣̌̄̊̇c̵. I added the zalgo marks to a narrow no-break space in between the schwa and a "c" with a line over it (there's no reverse schwa apparently). Obviously it's not a perfect match, but I think that's sort of the point of this comic. [[User:RDiMartino\|RDiMartino]] ([[User talk:RDiMartino\|talk]]) 15:31, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
		+
		+	ꬱ̯̣̌̄̊̇ would work if only I could get the diacritics centered.
		+	[[User:Heleatunda\|Heleatunda]] ([[User talk:Heleatunda\|talk]]) 01:11, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

	Someone please remind me how to Zalgo a top horizontal bar over √-1. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.211.134\|172.70.211.134]] 02:34, 11 August 2022 (UTC)		Someone please remind me how to Zalgo a top horizontal bar over √-1. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.211.134\|172.70.211.134]] 02:34, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:52, 15 August 2022
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	"the properties of complex numbers could conceivably support representing physiological features of the vocal tract" - not sure about this - the properties of complex numbers stem from imaginary numbers being defined in relation to the square root of -1 - it's not obvious how a value of -1 would have any meaning in vocalspace (since it's a limited scale, not a continuous plane), never mind its square root, so how would the interactions between real and imaginary numbers read across to those between tongue movements and other vocal tract features? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.223\|172.70.90.223]] 10:10, 15 August 2022 (UTC)		"the properties of complex numbers could conceivably support representing physiological features of the vocal tract" - not sure about this - the properties of complex numbers stem from imaginary numbers being defined in relation to the square root of -1 - it's not obvious how a value of -1 would have any meaning in vocalspace (since it's a limited scale, not a continuous plane), never mind its square root, so how would the interactions between real and imaginary numbers read across to those between tongue movements and other vocal tract features? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.223\|172.70.90.223]] 10:10, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
		+	:Well... Although I never liked the way it was worded, I envisaged it as depicting extradimensional movements/displacements, possibly introducing resonances of air beyond the current three dimensions (and time) of movement. Such as compressive waves in a further imaginary dimension. (For transverse/tortional-waves, in media that support them, moments of movement/wbatever perpendicular/hyperradial to any 'real' version, but in air tbat's probably moot. Unless it isn't..?)
		+	:Or you could consider, as you say, a limited scale of 0..1 being the distance of the tongue-tip between roof-touching and floor-touching (-1 would be a tongue ''embedded'' in whichever surface is zero, somehow phased through and creating a 'nevative cavity' of resonance, somehow, and an i-ward position would be... Well, not 'sideways' (though that does change things) but ''hyper''-sideways (again those other dimensions, probably requiring muscles/etc we don't normally consider), and all that implies.
		+	:...that's if you want my assumptions about how an entirely ficticious and frankly esoteric scenario might 'really' be implemented. I won't say it's the way it ''would'' be, and there are limely many other (mis)interpretations of how it might happen, these were just my first thoughts on initially reading the comic (but it used less words in my head, as I could more easily imagine the necessary illustrative diagrams that did most of the heavy lifting). [[Special:Contributions/172.70.91.78\|172.70.91.78]] 11:52, 15 August 2022 (UTC)