Talk:2727: Runtime - Revision history

172.68.205.93: ...editing others' (Talk) contributions really isn't done. The exception being to append the signature (nor nag-for-signature) that they missed, of course.

2025-01-02T00:34:06Z

...editing others' (Talk) contributions really isn't done. The exception being to append the signature (nor nag-for-signature) that they missed, of course.

172.68.54.157: Ye olde it's/its problem and other typos/indelicacies

2025-01-01T23:46:56Z

Ye olde it's/its problem and other typos/indelicacies

162.158.193.254 at 16:11, 3 March 2023

2023-03-03T16:11:04Z

172.68.210.6: Added a possible final episode

2023-02-27T11:05:22Z

Added a possible final episode

172.71.178.186 at 17:31, 8 February 2023

2023-02-08T17:31:04Z

172.71.242.172 at 09:45, 8 February 2023

2023-02-08T09:45:31Z

NiceGuy1 at 05:07, 28 January 2023

2023-01-28T05:07:43Z

172.70.85.80 at 04:18, 28 January 2023

2023-01-28T04:18:19Z

Yorkshire Pudding at 00:55, 28 January 2023

2023-01-28T00:55:11Z

NiceGuy1 at 22:44, 26 January 2023

2023-01-26T22:44:50Z

@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 Is "The original Doctor Who, running from 1963-1989 was extremely low budget, and is generally considered to be not as good as the revived series (2005-present), which has a much higher production budget and is typically much more popular with modern viewers (who mainly ignore the older episodes)" actually true? Most of the discussion I've seen is not particularly kind to the revival relative to the heyday of the third through seventh doctors. It seems like someone just made this up to fit the comic's underlying narrative. An actual citation is actually needed. I would suggest in this case that being its own thing means that the quality varies from writer to writer more than from year to year. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.210.145|172.70.210.145]] 08:21, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
-:Without having read your comment, I made changes there that might help. But, really, the joke is ''not about'' Doctor Who (outside of the title text), and while there is much useful info to impart, the point is that it just isn't covered by the comparison and might even need to begiven a Trivia-like add-on for the detail, and leave the main bit as a "it's complicated!" to not distract..? ;)
+:Without having read your comment, I made changes there that might help. But, really, the joke is ''not about'' Doctor Who (outside of the title text), and while there is much useful info to impart, the point is that it just isn't covered by the comparison and might even need to begiven a Trivia-like add-on for the detail, and leave the main bit as a "it's complicated!" to not distract..? ;) {{unsigned ip|172.70.162.56|09:14, 21 January 2023
-::How rude to make changes without reading the comment. ;) However, I agree with both sentiments.
+::How rude to make changes without reading the comment. ;) However, I agree with both sentiments. {{unsigned ip|172.68.54.157|23:46, 1 January 2025}}
 I think the title text is less about the number of seasons of Doctor Who and more about the fact that people tend to suggest you start with the 9th Doctor. In other words, they're suggesting you skip the first 8 Doctors. [[User:Mrgvsv|Mrgvsv]] ([[User talk:Mrgvsv|talk]]) 15:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 Is "The original Doctor Who, running from 1963-1989 was extremely low budget, and is generally considered to be not as good as the revived series (2005-present), which has a much higher production budget and is typically much more popular with modern viewers (who mainly ignore the older episodes)" actually true? Most of the discussion I've seen is not particularly kind to the revival relative to the heyday of the third through seventh doctors. It seems like someone just made this up to fit the comic's underlying narrative. An actual citation is actually needed. I would suggest in this case that being its own thing means that the quality varies from writer to writer more than from year to year. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.210.145|172.70.210.145]] 08:21, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
-:Without having read your comment, I made changes there that might help. But, really, the joke is ''not about'' Doctor Who (outside of the title text)v, and while there is much useful info to impart, the point is that it just isn't covered by the comparison and might even need to begiven a Trivia-like add-on for the detail, and leave the main bit as a "it's complicated!" to not distract..? ;)
+:Without having read your comment, I made changes there that might help. But, really, the joke is ''not about'' Doctor Who (outside of the title text), and while there is much useful info to impart, the point is that it just isn't covered by the comparison and might even need to begiven a Trivia-like add-on for the detail, and leave the main bit as a "it's complicated!" to not distract..? ;)
 I think the title text is less about the number of seasons of Doctor Who and more about the fact that people tend to suggest you start with the 9th Doctor. In other words, they're suggesting you skip the first 8 Doctors. [[User:Mrgvsv|Mrgvsv]] ([[User talk:Mrgvsv|talk]]) 15:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 :I don't know anyone who thinks the revival has been better than the Pertwee and Baker years. Since 2018 there's been no respect for continuity or canon, just one long retcon festival. It's not a story, it's a set of shorts with a theme. Not that the original was too great with continuity to begin with, of course. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.211.91|172.70.211.91]] 19:45, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
-::Horses for courses. I don't rate much of Nine's tenure (except as a useful re-emergence of the franchise), and the structure of the stories had changed (gone with the serials, apart from a few multi-episode stories, and of course the integration of series-arcs; then the awkward reliance on ''only'' a Christmas/New Year episode-or-two without even proper free reign in a mini-season or longer), but Classic was Executively Meddled With in its own ways more suited for the time and there was enough fan-grief at the time for all of that, and confusion by the more casual viewers.
+::Horses for courses. I don't rate much of Nine's tenure (except as a useful re-emergence of the franchise), and the structure of the stories had changed (gone with the serials, apart from a few multi-episode stories, and of course the integration of series-arcs; then the awkward reliance on ''only'' a Christmas/New Year episode-or-two without even proper free reign in a mini-season or longer), but Classic was Executively Meddled with in its own ways more suited for the time and there was enough fan-grief at the time for all of that, and confusion by the more casual viewers.
-::Yes, perhaps a bit too much introverted navel-gazing and unsubtle nod-nod-wink-wink to the perceived obessesives. Some of the writers may be a bit too much fans themselves. And yet others just plan reckless and ''not'' as  solidly faithful as we might wish them to be to our own personal headcanon.
+::Yes, perhaps a bit too much introverted navel-gazing and unsubtle nod-nod-wink-wink to the perceived obsessives. Some of the writers may be a bit too much fans themselves. And yet others just plan reckless and ''not'' as  solidly faithful as we might wish them to be to our own personal headcanon.
 ::But that's not unique to Who. And I can't judge the series's merit only on ''my'' enjoyment. There's far more than that to the successful commercial continuation. And this is a discussion that could ''really'' alienate those we might hope to appreciate the 'real' series, whatever that is. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.79.159|172.69.79.159]] 20:35, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
@@ Line 33: / Line 34: @@
 :Then there are the Doctor actors from {{w|Doctor Who: The Curse of Fatal Death|The Curse Of Fatal Death}}, should you legitimately find a place to include those of them not already mentioned. ;) [[Special:Contributions/172.71.242.139|172.71.242.139]] 16:41, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 ::Made the issue moot by making it less numerically exact. Also proofed the article against needing editing in the next year or three when Fifteen is current, or even succeeded by a Sixteen. (Could be more than the ~four year average, or less, but it'll be maybe only half a dozen ''episodes'' a year, if we're lucky. Possibly less. Even with seasonal specials.) [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.56|172.70.86.56]] 13:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
-:::Ahh Dr Who Numbering ... with 7 Timeless children, 8 Mobius Dr's, Fugative, 15 numbered, War, Two incarnations of 10, 14 being the same as 10, The Curator, The Meta-Crisis Dr, Forced Regeneration 13, Master-Doctor, The Valeyard, The Curator,  ....etc .. anything with 50+ years of Lore most of it made up as they went along gets very complex .. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.47|172.70.85.47]] 16:46, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
+:::Ahh Dr Who Numbering ... with 7 Timeless children, 8 Mobius Doctors, Fugative, 15 numbered, War, Two incarnations of 10, 14 being the same as 10, The Curator, The Meta-Crisis Doctor, Forced Regeneration 13, Master-Doctor, The Valeyard, The Curator,  ....etc .. anything with 50+ years of Lore most of it made up as they went along gets very complex .. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.47|172.70.85.47]] 16:46, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
-Dr Who classic series is praised for it's stories, and Acting, but it is old enough that CGI didn't exist originally, and Special effects when they arrived were too expensive for it's small budget - It is often recommended to stsrt with New Who and go back to the Classic series if you want to - the remaining Classic series is a whopping 21 days 22 hours and 30 minutes runtime, so it good you don't need to  [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.133|172.70.85.133]] 12:36, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
+Dr Who classic series is praised for its stories, and Acting, but it is old enough that CGI didn't exist originally, and Special effects when they arrived were too expensive for its small budget - It is often recommended to start with New Who and go back to the Classic series if you want to - the remaining Classic series is a whopping 21 days 22 hours and 30 minutes runtime, so it's good you don't need to  [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.133|172.70.85.133]] 12:36, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 ::I'd mention another example. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Most fans will agree that the first two seasons are weak, and I concur (even though it's one of my favourite shows). So you need to watch 20+26 episodes x 45 minutes to get to the good stuff. But "the good stuff" is 5 more seasons so the prize you get for watching the first two seasons is suibstantial...

@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
 I don't think 8 moves are of about equal length to 1 season. I picked 8 random movies from the list of movies I'm planning to watch and it totaled 18¼ hours. Then looked at some series first seasons. The Mandalorian is 5½ hours, Wednesday is 6 hours, Friends is 6¼ hours, even an outlier like Dragon Ball Z is only 10½ hours. The premise of the comic probably still stands though, but can be explained by the fact that with a series it also gives the promise of more hours of good material. With movies if the first 8 are bad there might not be many good ones after that. [[User:Tharkon|Tharkon]] ([[User talk:Tharkon|talk]]) 04:13, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 :You picked some BAD examples, though... AFAIK, Mandalorian and Wednesday are straight-to-streaming shows. STS, specialty channel, and non-North American shows (British, Australian) have particularly short seasons of 6, 8, or 10 episodes. A standard season is between 22 and 26 episodes at the very outside, usually around 24. Also, such discussions don't generally happen about half hour sitcoms & cartoons like Friends or Dragon Ball Z, most shows are hour shows (44 minutes without ads instead of 22). Quick and dirty math - rounding to 20 and 40 minute episodes, or 3 per hour and 3 per 2 hours - means you picked a weirdly short season of Friends of 18.75 episodes, their 26 episode seasons (as I recall they tended to hit 26) would be nearly 9 hours usually. Hour-long shows, using the average 24 episodes, is 16 hours. A usual average movie length these days is 2h per (used to be 1.5 until I'd say the late 90s, movies could be as short as 1:15 and rarely hit 2, but SO MANY long movies in recent decades) means 8 movies ALSO averages about 16. The math works out if you use standard, middle of the road examples - no long movies like Titanic or short seasons like streaming shows. [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 07:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 :It's not just about the length, although yes, it's rare for movie series to have more than 8 movies. It's about continuity. Movies tend to be relatively stand-alone (although there are counterexamples, like LOTR) so watching 8 of them just to "get" the 9th is rarely needed. Meanwhile, with series, you usually NEED to watch the first season - or at least big part of it - to get the basic premise of the show. It's more likely you get away with skipping second one, if it actually gets better in third or fourth season (like ST:DS9, although you probably can just watch first four episodes then skip rest of first season and whole second and not miss much). -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 12:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:05, 27 February 2023
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	Dr Who is about someone travelling in time, so it doesn't matter where you start, or what order you watch them in. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.242.172\|172.71.242.172]] 09:45, 8 February 2023 (UTC)		Dr Who is about someone travelling in time, so it doesn't matter where you start, or what order you watch them in. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.242.172\|172.71.242.172]] 09:45, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
	:Why not watch only the River Song episodes? In River Song order! (I think that'd start with The Rebel Flesh, technically, and it'd end with the Library/Forests double.) [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.186\|172.71.178.186]] 17:31, 8 February 2023 (UTC)		:Why not watch only the River Song episodes? In River Song order! (I think that'd start with The Rebel Flesh, technically, and it'd end with the Library/Forests double.) [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.186\|172.71.178.186]] 17:31, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
		+	:: Not 'The Name of the Doctor' [[Special:Contributions/172.68.210.6\|172.68.210.6]] 11:05, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:31, 8 February 2023
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	Dr Who is about someone travelling in time, so it doesn't matter where you start, or what order you watch them in. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.242.172\|172.71.242.172]] 09:45, 8 February 2023 (UTC)		Dr Who is about someone travelling in time, so it doesn't matter where you start, or what order you watch them in. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.242.172\|172.71.242.172]] 09:45, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
		+	:Why not watch only the River Song episodes? In River Song order! (I think that'd start with The Rebel Flesh, technically, and it'd end with the Library/Forests double.) [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.186\|172.71.178.186]] 17:31, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:45, 8 February 2023
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	:And the show ''has'' stopped being its original "educational and informing" concept (alternating a historic-era visit, then a future setting to expound something scientific, to please the kind of teachers that the first adult Companions were for ''precisely'' the need of Mr./Ms. Exposition (later often the Watson/Explain-It-To-Me-Holmes character) to act as proxy/relay to the viewers) pretty much let go after the first series (US:season), at which point it became a child-friendly (but not child-''coddling'') "sci-fi orientated dramatic entertainment show".		:And the show ''has'' stopped being its original "educational and informing" concept (alternating a historic-era visit, then a future setting to expound something scientific, to please the kind of teachers that the first adult Companions were for ''precisely'' the need of Mr./Ms. Exposition (later often the Watson/Explain-It-To-Me-Holmes character) to act as proxy/relay to the viewers) pretty much let go after the first series (US:season), at which point it became a child-friendly (but not child-''coddling'') "sci-fi orientated dramatic entertainment show".
	:But anybody who has any interest at all in the details probably knows much of this (except that I happened to eat Two-Ball Screwballs in the '70s, as most fans would be rightfully ignorant of my own personal particular icecream preferences from five decades back, and I'd be worried if it was actually widely known!), and the kind of viewer who might otherwise be told to "watch from <this point>, at least up to <that point>, before you give up on my recommendation" wouldn't get any benefit out of being either informed or ''mis''informed about any of these fundemental qualities of production lore... So this is just my response to you, and nobody else needs to have read this far... <checks left and right> ...ah good, it looks like it's just us. As long as nobody else comes along later and has to read the unstructured rush of opinion that gushed out of both our variously twisted egos. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.80\|172.70.85.80]] 04:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)		:But anybody who has any interest at all in the details probably knows much of this (except that I happened to eat Two-Ball Screwballs in the '70s, as most fans would be rightfully ignorant of my own personal particular icecream preferences from five decades back, and I'd be worried if it was actually widely known!), and the kind of viewer who might otherwise be told to "watch from <this point>, at least up to <that point>, before you give up on my recommendation" wouldn't get any benefit out of being either informed or ''mis''informed about any of these fundemental qualities of production lore... So this is just my response to you, and nobody else needs to have read this far... <checks left and right> ...ah good, it looks like it's just us. As long as nobody else comes along later and has to read the unstructured rush of opinion that gushed out of both our variously twisted egos. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.80\|172.70.85.80]] 04:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+	Dr Who is about someone travelling in time, so it doesn't matter where you start, or what order you watch them in. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.242.172\|172.71.242.172]] 09:45, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 45: / Line 45: @@
 <br />Did that memo not leave the UK?
 <br />Oh my... {{unsigned|Yorkshire Pudding|00:55, 28 January 2023}}
 :Nice diatribe. Yes, the 'phone booth' was originally supposed to be an "invisible sphere", within which the crew would have vanished from shot (think Al and his time-chamber door in Quantum Leap? At least from Sam's sole perspective..) before it (timewise-)vanished as well, but it would have been hard to film convincingly. Given that Police Phone Boxes were pretty much on their way out even back in Hartnell's day (it was 'not out of place' in a scrapyard, as one of the last acts of the Chameleon Circuit apart from some sporadic fixes years later, and nu-Who seems to have relied upon the Perception Filter and occasional "entirely made invisible" trick and given up on any reason to fix it) I think that was an inspired/lucky choice, beyond what they knew they were actually doing at the time. You can make a glorious new 'thing' such as the H.G.Wells-style time-machine (a kind of steamless-Steampunk brass chair-with-controls-and-weird-perpendicular-wheel), fashion something whose mystery is held within a handy portable future-styled casing that might as well be ''objet trouvé'' (the Matter Paddle from Red Dwarf looks like a repainted version of something that would be a Bop-It, these days, and just 'happened' to have exactly as many handholds to it as Dwarf crew) or consciously use an existing past idea of the future of transport and zhoosh it up (the DeLorean!). Writing the TARDIS as a Policebox was a hit in so many different ways, and outlasted most people knowing what a ''real'' one was with no real problems... The ''Metropolitan Police'' couldn't even get the copyright on the imagery of the thing, when they tried!
 :(I expect you meant the Daleks were dustbins with melons on, though the similarity between a cylindrical bin and the truncated polygonal pyramid 'skirt' of a Dalek-casing upon which are those bumps is very, very approximate. Some say that pepperpots played a part in the design, but that's officially denied. I've personally had icecream-packaging that seems ''quite'' like a Dalek - without actually being a copy - but this was in the '70s so it might have been a "copy''ish'' but not actually a copy, you can't touch us for it!' by the icecream company.)

@@ Line 39: / Line 39: @@
 Good lord. Everybody in the UK knows - even if they won't admit it - that Doctor Who was upturned dustbins studded with grapefruit, a police box shaped thing that (ahem) couldn't turn back into the right form because of a (ahem) malfunction. The TARDIS was a phone booth. Because that was easy, and "Oops, it can't stop looking like this easily recognisable blue rectangle, that's a shame!" is easy. Easy and cheap. Cheap cheap cheap. Cheap and ridiculous.
+<br />Hiding behind the sofa as kids because cybermen are terrifying if you're a kid (even if they're just grey coveralls and bits of tubing) makes it culturally iconic, and so does Tom Baker's eccentricity/scarf. But so does anything that strikes a chord! If you're in a country where there are 3 (OK, eventually 4) TV channels, and two of them are publicly funded (and that's where Doctor Who is made!), the bar is very, very low. It wasn't great. It was iconic, but it was cheap crap nonsense.
-Hiding behind the sofa as kids because cybermen are terrifying if you're a kid (even if they're just grey coveralls and bits of tubing) makes it culturally iconic, and so does Tom Baker's eccentricity/scarf. But so does anything that strikes a chord! If you're in a country where there are 3 (OK, eventually 4) TV channels, and two of them are publicly funded (and that's where Doctor Who is made!), the bar is very, very low. It wasn't great. It was iconic, but it was cheap crap nonsense.
+<br />Eccleston is not everyone's cup of tea when it comes to Who, but at least he (and everybody else involved) ushered in a new era with modern production values. What a time to be a kid.
+<br />Yeah...kid.
-Eccleston is not everyone's cup of tea when it comes to Who, but at least he (and everybody else involved) ushered in a new era with modern production values. What a time to be a kid.
+<br />What...you do know it's KIDS' show, right? That's why the scripts are so seemingly weak.
+<br />Did that memo not leave the UK?
-Yeah...kid.
+<br />Oh my... {{unsigned|Yorkshire Pudding|00:55, 28 January 2023}}
+:Nice diatribe. Yes, the 'phone booth' was originally supposed to be an "invisible sphere", within which the crew would have vanished from shot (think Al and his time-chamber door in Quantum Leap? At least from Sam's sole perspective..) before it (timewise-)vanished as well, but it would have been hard to film convincingly. Given that Police Phone Boxes were pretty much on their way out even back in Hartnell's day (it was 'not out of place' in a scrapyard, as one of the last acts of the Chameleon Circuit apart from some sporadic fixes years later, and nu-Who seems to have relied upon the Perception Filter and occasional "entirely made invisible" trick and given up on any reason to fix it) I think that was an inspired/lucky choice, beyond what they knew they were actually doing at the time. You can make a glorious new 'thing' such as the H.G.Wells-style time-machine (a kind of steamless-Steampunk brass chair-with-controls-and-weird-perpendicular-wheel), fashion something whose mystery is held within a handy portable future-styled casing that might as well be ''objet trouvé'' (the Matter Paddle from Red Dwarf looks like a repainted version of something that would be a Bop-It, these days, and just 'happened' to have exactly as many handholds to it as Dwarf crew) or consciously use an existing past idea of the future of transport and zhoosh it up (the DeLorean!). Writing the TARDIS as a Policebox was a hit in so many different ways, and outlasted most people knowing what a ''real'' one was with no real problems... The ''Metropolitan Police'' couldn't even get the copyright on the imagery of the thing, when they tried!
-What...you do know it's KIDS' show, right? That's why the scripts are so seemingly weak.
+:(I expect you meant the Daleks were dustbins with melons on, though the similarity between a cylindrical bin and the truncated polygonal pyramid 'skirt' of a Dalek-casing upon which are those bumps is very, very approximate. Some say that pepperpots played a part in the design, but that's officially denied. I've personally had icecream-packaging that seems ''quite'' like a Dalek - without actually being a copy - but this was in the '70s so it might have been a "copy''ish'' but not actually a copy, you can't touch us for it!' by the icecream company.)
+:Scarves (or lapel-vegetation, or the Whomobile, or the...) didn't start with #4. ITV shows were just as 'cheap' (if anything, whoever your ITV provider was at the time, Grenada/Central/Anglian/etc) probably had to be more creative with their divided budgets (c.f. Morecambe And Wise's stints on and off the BBC).
-Did that memo not leave the UK?
+:Kids' shows... Meh. Not like there wasn't a My Little Pony fanaticism for a good long decade or so, that seemed to go well beyond 'conciously ironic', right? Defining purely by the expected/intended audience is something best left to be gotten wrong by the Marketing Department.
+:And the show ''has'' stopped being its original "educational and informing" concept (alternating a historic-era visit, then a future setting to expound something scientific, to please the kind of teachers that the first adult Companions were for ''precisely'' the need of Mr./Ms. Exposition (later often the Watson/Explain-It-To-Me-Holmes character) to act as proxy/relay to the viewers) pretty much let go after the first series (US:season), at which point it became a child-friendly (but not child-''coddling'') "sci-fi orientated dramatic entertainment show".
-Oh my...
+:But anybody who has any interest at all in the details probably knows much of this (except that I happened to eat Two-Ball Screwballs in the '70s, as most fans would be rightfully ignorant of my own personal particular icecream preferences from five decades back, and I'd be worried if it was actually widely known!), and the kind of viewer who might otherwise be told to "watch from <this point>, at least up to <that point>, before you give up on my recommendation" wouldn't get any benefit out of being either informed or ''mis''informed about any of these fundemental qualities of production lore... So this is just my response to you, and nobody else needs to have read this far... <checks left and right> ...ah good, it looks like it's just us. As long as nobody else comes along later and has to read the unstructured rush of opinion that gushed out of both our variously twisted egos. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.80|172.70.85.80]] 04:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:55, 28 January 2023
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	::I'd mention another example. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Most fans will agree that the first two seasons are weak, and I concur (even though it's one of my favourite shows). So you need to watch 20+26 episodes x 45 minutes to get to the good stuff. But "the good stuff" is 5 more seasons so the prize you get for watching the first two seasons is suibstantial...		::I'd mention another example. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Most fans will agree that the first two seasons are weak, and I concur (even though it's one of my favourite shows). So you need to watch 20+26 episodes x 45 minutes to get to the good stuff. But "the good stuff" is 5 more seasons so the prize you get for watching the first two seasons is suibstantial...
		+
		+	Good lord. Everybody in the UK knows - even if they won't admit it - that Doctor Who was upturned dustbins studded with grapefruit, a police box shaped thing that (ahem) couldn't turn back into the right form because of a (ahem) malfunction. The TARDIS was a phone booth. Because that was easy, and "Oops, it can't stop looking like this easily recognisable blue rectangle, that's a shame!" is easy. Easy and cheap. Cheap cheap cheap. Cheap and ridiculous.
		+
		+	Hiding behind the sofa as kids because cybermen are terrifying if you're a kid (even if they're just grey coveralls and bits of tubing) makes it culturally iconic, and so does Tom Baker's eccentricity/scarf. But so does anything that strikes a chord! If you're in a country where there are 3 (OK, eventually 4) TV channels, and two of them are publicly funded (and that's where Doctor Who is made!), the bar is very, very low. It wasn't great. It was iconic, but it was cheap crap nonsense.
		+
		+	Eccleston is not everyone's cup of tea when it comes to Who, but at least he (and everybody else involved) ushered in a new era with modern production values. What a time to be a kid.
		+
		+	Yeah...kid.
		+
		+	What...you do know it's KIDS' show, right? That's why the scripts are so seemingly weak.
		+
		+	Did that memo not leave the UK?
		+
		+	Oh my...