Talk:2812: Solar Panel Placement - Revision history

172.70.90.173 at 11:02, 14 August 2023

2023-08-14T11:02:22Z

172.70.246.238: the ratio of earnings fits with the inverse-square law

2023-08-14T06:08:59Z

the ratio of earnings fits with the inverse-square law

172.69.150.109: comment on the need to take into account viewing angles etc.

2023-08-14T05:31:41Z

comment on the need to take into account viewing angles etc.

172.71.182.45: Added my 2ct. Feel free to remove again

2023-08-10T16:45:49Z

Added my 2ct. Feel free to remove again

DownGoer at 05:53, 10 August 2023

2023-08-10T05:53:25Z

172.70.91.6 at 21:19, 9 August 2023

2023-08-09T21:19:23Z

172.70.86.7 at 21:16, 9 August 2023

2023-08-09T21:16:35Z

ProphetZarquon: Spacing

2023-08-09T17:30:10Z

Spacing

ProphetZarquon: Separated from unsigned comment

2023-08-09T17:29:18Z

Separated from unsigned comment

ProphetZarquon: Microwave power (if we're being serious)

2023-08-09T17:27:48Z

Microwave power (if we're being serious)

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:02, 14 August 2023
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	I love you guys! I would be more concerned about keeping ym shiny new solar panel cooled enough to be efficient. That close to Earth, I would fear that my Solar Panel just melts, and that the solar wind woll blow the molten droplets all around. And I have yet to find an insurance company willing to cover any damaged property by this side effect of the fusion powered heat generator in our Solar System. Not worth the risk, IMHO. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.182.45\|172.71.182.45]] 16:45, 10 August 2023 (UTC)		I love you guys! I would be more concerned about keeping ym shiny new solar panel cooled enough to be efficient. That close to Earth, I would fear that my Solar Panel just melts, and that the solar wind woll blow the molten droplets all around. And I have yet to find an insurance company willing to cover any damaged property by this side effect of the fusion powered heat generator in our Solar System. Not worth the risk, IMHO. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.182.45\|172.71.182.45]] 16:45, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
		+	: I would think they would reject your claim as resulting from an act of Sol.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.173\|172.70.90.173]] 11:02, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

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 :Further out, distance from the Sun factors in as an inverse square relationship, but it'll be negligable when you're practically at the Surface and close to the full 2pi steradian of incident light from a significantly greater area of emitting surface than the unit-area of receiving surface. Once you're at Earth-orbit distance, it's a tad below 70 nanosteradian of "panel view" and almost none of the light even from the directly facing square metre of Sun even comes close to the even smaller solid angle subtending the outwards spread of light.
 :Set your panel at the height of various solar-surface features, you might not intercept much of the light (hence division by Sun's area) yet what you'll capture will be significant. Probably well beyond any long-(/medium-, perhaps even short-)term survivability of a lump of plastic, silicon and metals normally stuck on a house roof. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.91.161|172.70.91.161]] 15:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
-:I think the view factor calculations are not needed here: Imagine the sun's surface covered with 1m² panels. Then all the outgoing light is captured by those panels. The incident light can be calculated by a simple area division. If the panels are further away, more panels are needed, and the incident light is smaller (reverse square dependence on the distance from the ''center'' of the sun). (G.Rote) --[[Special:Contributions/172.69.150.109|172.69.150.109]] 05:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
+:I think view factor calculations are ''not needed here'': Imagine the sun's surface covered with 1m² panels. Then all the outgoing light is captured by those panels. The incident light can be calculated by a simple area division. If the panels are further away, more panels are needed, and the incident light per panel is smaller (reverse square dependence on the distance from the ''center'' of the sun). (G.Rote) --[[Special:Contributions/172.69.150.109|172.69.150.109]] 05:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 I was briefly confused because HVAC usually stands for heating, ventilation, and air conditioning, but is here used to mean high-voltage alternating current. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.247.50|172.69.247.50]] 13:31, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 22: / Line 22: @@
 :Further out, distance from the Sun factors in as an inverse square relationship, but it'll be negligable when you're practically at the Surface and close to the full 2pi steradian of incident light from a significantly greater area of emitting surface than the unit-area of receiving surface. Once you're at Earth-orbit distance, it's a tad below 70 nanosteradian of "panel view" and almost none of the light even from the directly facing square metre of Sun even comes close to the even smaller solid angle subtending the outwards spread of light.
 :Set your panel at the height of various solar-surface features, you might not intercept much of the light (hence division by Sun's area) yet what you'll capture will be significant. Probably well beyond any long-(/medium-, perhaps even short-)term survivability of a lump of plastic, silicon and metals normally stuck on a house roof. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.91.161|172.70.91.161]] 15:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 I was briefly confused because HVAC usually stands for heating, ventilation, and air conditioning, but is here used to mean high-voltage alternating current. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.247.50|172.69.247.50]] 13:31, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:45, 10 August 2023
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	I added an explanation of the two equations Randall used. Not sure how clear they are but I'm fairly certain the math checks out. [[User:DownGoer\|DownGoer]] ([[User talk:DownGoer\|talk]]) 05:53, 10 August 2023 (UTC)		I added an explanation of the two equations Randall used. Not sure how clear they are but I'm fairly certain the math checks out. [[User:DownGoer\|DownGoer]] ([[User talk:DownGoer\|talk]]) 05:53, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+	I love you guys! I would be more concerned about keeping ym shiny new solar panel cooled enough to be efficient. That close to Earth, I would fear that my Solar Panel just melts, and that the solar wind woll blow the molten droplets all around. And I have yet to find an insurance company willing to cover any damaged property by this side effect of the fusion powered heat generator in our Solar System. Not worth the risk, IMHO. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.182.45\|172.71.182.45]] 16:45, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:53, 10 August 2023
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	::Yes, we'd do it differently 'IRL', but this is very much part of the whole treatment. For one thing, who puts just ''one'' 1m² PV panel on a rooftop, like that? (Never mind send it 1AU away from the owner's home.) Round here, the standard seems to be 14 panels (and non-square... 1m x 1.65m if my recent jotted measurements of those used upon a particular roof is not unrepresentative).		::Yes, we'd do it differently 'IRL', but this is very much part of the whole treatment. For one thing, who puts just ''one'' 1m² PV panel on a rooftop, like that? (Never mind send it 1AU away from the owner's home.) Round here, the standard seems to be 14 panels (and non-square... 1m x 1.65m if my recent jotted measurements of those used upon a particular roof is not unrepresentative).
	::It's a "spherical cow in a vacuum" sort of scenario, and we can choose to accept (or argue against) whatever bits of handwavium we feel like highlighting. So why not educate, inform ''and'' entertain? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.7\|172.70.86.7]] 21:16, 9 August 2023 (UTC)		::It's a "spherical cow in a vacuum" sort of scenario, and we can choose to accept (or argue against) whatever bits of handwavium we feel like highlighting. So why not educate, inform ''and'' entertain? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.7\|172.70.86.7]] 21:16, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+	I added an explanation of the two equations Randall used. Not sure how clear they are but I'm fairly certain the math checks out. [[User:DownGoer\|DownGoer]] ([[User talk:DownGoer\|talk]]) 05:53, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 39: / Line 39: @@
 :Aside from intentional absurdity, why run wires? Wireless power attenuation is very low in a near-vacuum; just beam the power back via microwave. That's how all the serious proposals work, & it seems both obvious & potentially quite practical... It's really just the survivability of anything parked so close to the sun's ejecta, that seems problematic, to me?
 :[[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 17:27, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
-::Clearly the above is riffing directly off the "transmission lines" (i.e. strung physical cables) directly mentioned in the title text. Yes, melting/ablation/etc is going to be a major problem (as is sitting the panel directly above the so-called surface of the Sun, which seems to be different from putting it into Very Low Solar Orbit), but the fanciful issue of merely the ''cabling'' being a high initial calital cost is very much a Munrovian flight of fancy that's not particularly unusual in such punchlines.
+::Clearly the above is riffing directly off the "transmission lines" (i.e. strung physical cables) directly mentioned in the title text. Yes, melting/ablation/etc is going to be a major problem (as is sitting the panel directly above the so-called surface of the Sun, which seems to be different from putting it into Very Low Solar Orbit), but the fanciful issue of merely the ''cabling'' being a high initial capital cost is very much a Munrovian flight of fancy that's not particularly unusual in such punchlines.
-::Yes, we'd do it differently 'IRL', but this is very much part of the whole treatment. For one thing, who puts just ''one'' 1m² PV panel on a rooftop, like that. Round here, the standard seems to be 14 panels (and non-square... 1m x 1.65m if my recent jotted measurements of those used upon a particular roof is not unrepresentative). It's a "spherical cow in a vacuum" sort of scenario, and we can choose to accept (or argue against) whatever bits of handwavium we feel like highlighting. So why not educate, inform ''and'' entertain? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.7|172.70.86.7]] 21:16, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
+::Yes, we'd do it differently 'IRL', but this is very much part of the whole treatment. For one thing, who puts just ''one'' 1m² PV panel on a rooftop, like that? (Never mind send it 1AU away from the owner's home.) Round here, the standard seems to be 14 panels (and non-square... 1m x 1.65m if my recent jotted measurements of those used upon a particular roof is not unrepresentative).

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:16, 9 August 2023
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	:Aside from intentional absurdity, why run wires? Wireless power attenuation is very low in a near-vacuum; just beam the power back via microwave. That's how all the serious proposals work, & it seems both obvious & potentially quite practical... It's really just the survivability of anything parked so close to the sun's ejecta, that seems problematic, to me?		:Aside from intentional absurdity, why run wires? Wireless power attenuation is very low in a near-vacuum; just beam the power back via microwave. That's how all the serious proposals work, & it seems both obvious & potentially quite practical... It's really just the survivability of anything parked so close to the sun's ejecta, that seems problematic, to me?
	:[[User:ProphetZarquon\|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon\|talk]]) 17:27, 9 August 2023 (UTC)		:[[User:ProphetZarquon\|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon\|talk]]) 17:27, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
		+	::Clearly the above is riffing directly off the "transmission lines" (i.e. strung physical cables) directly mentioned in the title text. Yes, melting/ablation/etc is going to be a major problem (as is sitting the panel directly above the so-called surface of the Sun, which seems to be different from putting it into Very Low Solar Orbit), but the fanciful issue of merely the ''cabling'' being a high initial calital cost is very much a Munrovian flight of fancy that's not particularly unusual in such punchlines.
		+	::Yes, we'd do it differently 'IRL', but this is very much part of the whole treatment. For one thing, who puts just ''one'' 1m² PV panel on a rooftop, like that. Round here, the standard seems to be 14 panels (and non-square... 1m x 1.65m if my recent jotted measurements of those used upon a particular roof is not unrepresentative). It's a "spherical cow in a vacuum" sort of scenario, and we can choose to accept (or argue against) whatever bits of handwavium we feel like highlighting. So why not educate, inform ''and'' entertain? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.7\|172.70.86.7]] 21:16, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 35: / Line 35: @@
 The power line loss calculation is not at all valid. Lines on the surface of a planet lose far more power to heating and induction etc. In the cold vacuum of space, efficiency should be excellent.  (This should also reference some of the https://what-if.xkcd.com/157/ problems though.) [[Special:Contributions/172.69.65.206|172.69.65.206]] 18:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 : Given that standard transmission losses (for long distance HVAC power lines) are [https://iea-etsap.org/E-TechDS/PDF/E12_el-t&d_KV_Apr2014_GSOK.pdf around 3% per 1000 km] and the Sun is 150 million km away, the energy reaching the Earth would be 0.97^(150000), a truly negligible amount (10^-1985 of the input energy). In this case, you'd be better off literally sending huge packs of rechargeable batteries to Earth.
-: Above comment not signed.
+: ~~ Above comment not signed. ~~
 :Aside from intentional absurdity, why run wires? Wireless power attenuation is very low in a near-vacuum; just beam the power back via microwave. That's how all the serious proposals work, & it seems both obvious & potentially quite practical... It's really just the survivability of anything parked so close to the sun's ejecta, that seems problematic, to me?
 :[[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 17:27, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:27, 9 August 2023
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	The power line loss calculation is not at all valid. Lines on the surface of a planet lose far more power to heating and induction etc. In the cold vacuum of space, efficiency should be excellent. (This should also reference some of the https://what-if.xkcd.com/157/ problems though.) [[Special:Contributions/172.69.65.206\|172.69.65.206]] 18:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)		The power line loss calculation is not at all valid. Lines on the surface of a planet lose far more power to heating and induction etc. In the cold vacuum of space, efficiency should be excellent. (This should also reference some of the https://what-if.xkcd.com/157/ problems though.) [[Special:Contributions/172.69.65.206\|172.69.65.206]] 18:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
	: Given that standard transmission losses (for long distance HVAC power lines) are [https://iea-etsap.org/E-TechDS/PDF/E12_el-t&d_KV_Apr2014_GSOK.pdf around 3% per 1000 km] and the Sun is 150 million km away, the energy reaching the Earth would be 0.97^(150000), a truly negligible amount (10^-1985 of the input energy). In this case, you'd be better off literally sending huge packs of rechargeable batteries to Earth.		: Given that standard transmission losses (for long distance HVAC power lines) are [https://iea-etsap.org/E-TechDS/PDF/E12_el-t&d_KV_Apr2014_GSOK.pdf around 3% per 1000 km] and the Sun is 150 million km away, the energy reaching the Earth would be 0.97^(150000), a truly negligible amount (10^-1985 of the input energy). In this case, you'd be better off literally sending huge packs of rechargeable batteries to Earth.
		+	:Aside from intentional absurdity, why run wires? Wireless power attenuation is very low in a near-vacuum; just beam the power back via microwave. That's how all the serious proposals work, & it seems both obvious & potentially quite practical... It's really just the survivability of anything parked so close to the sun's ejecta, that seems problematic, to me?
		+	:[[User:ProphetZarquon\|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon\|talk]]) 17:27, 9 August 2023 (UTC)