Difference between revisions of "Talk:2566: Decorative Constants"

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:Can confirm this, the book mentions that the "traditional tribute to Euler and Bernoulli" comes from Frank White's ''Fluid Mechanics'' textbook. [[User:Clam|Clam]] ([[User talk:Clam|talk]]) 01:08, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 
:Can confirm this, the book mentions that the "traditional tribute to Euler and Bernoulli" comes from Frank White's ''Fluid Mechanics'' textbook. [[User:Clam|Clam]] ([[User talk:Clam|talk]]) 01:08, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 
:: There it is, page 266 in the 1986 2nd edition: "They both have a factor ½ as a traditional tribute to Bernoulli and Euler, and both are based on the projected area..." https://books.google.com/books?id=wGweAQAAIAAJ&q=traditional -- [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.5|172.70.162.5]] 02:13, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 
:: There it is, page 266 in the 1986 2nd edition: "They both have a factor ½ as a traditional tribute to Bernoulli and Euler, and both are based on the projected area..." https://books.google.com/books?id=wGweAQAAIAAJ&q=traditional -- [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.5|172.70.162.5]] 02:13, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
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:::Great thanks have included both references in the explanation. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 08:32, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
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:Wait, wouldn't the values be twice as big (rather than half as big) if you left off the 1/2? [[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.154|141.101.69.154]] 12:43, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
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::No. If 1/2Cd = Constant, then the new constant would be half as big as Cd since Cd=2x constant. You would just put in the 1/2 in the new version of Cd, so the new Cd is half as big as the old, and the final result the same.--[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 10:44, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
  
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Of course, the c^2 im e=mc^2 is just as decorative, when using natural units where c=1.... [[Special:Contributions/172.68.50.171|172.68.50.171]] 00:29, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
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: And the resulting equation is then just e=m - or m=e which is beautiful and profound.  "Mass is Energy".  Without the complications, you stop thinking of it as a PROCESS for converting one into the other and get the more profound point that Mass and Energy are the exact same thing.  [[User:SteveBaker|SteveBaker]] ([[User talk:SteveBaker|talk]]) 03:33, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
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: I respectfully disagree. The c² isn't decorative; mc² is a measure of energy and m is not. e=mc², like f=ma, still works even if you change the size of any of the basic units (of length, time, mass) from which the units of energy and force are derived. As I see it, an equation that ties you to any definition of unit size is less profound, not more. [[User:Tom239|Tom239]] ([[User talk:Tom239|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
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I think the 1/2 in the drag equation is intuitive. I understand that it is technically superfluous, but F=Pd*A and Pd=1/2*rho*u^2 so the 1/2 carries over intuitively. {{unsigned ip|172.70.98.15}}
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:Agrees I had this written down in an early version of the explanation but that was edited out. Maybe I will put it in again.--[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 10:44, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
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Drag coefficients could just as easily be half as big. This is true but how is their being unitless relevant? It's more about how defining constants is partially arbitrary.  [[User:Lev|Lev]] ([[User talk:Lev|talk]]) 08:07, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
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:If Cd had a unit, say it was an energy which represented some relevant value for a given material, then it would not be correct to say that it was half as much, just because 1/2 came into the equation. But if it has no units, then it is just a constant saying something about the material, and then the 1/2 could in principle be absorbed without changing anything. But as stated above 1/2 actually has physical meaning in the way it enters the equation. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 10:44, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
  
of course, the c^2 im e=mc^2 is just as decorative, when using natural units where c=1.... [[Special:Contributions/172.68.50.171|172.68.50.171]] 00:29, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
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:It doesn't make any difference. For instance, Coulomb's law works fine whether we write it F = -q<sub>1</sub>q<sub>2</sub>/(4πε<sub>0</sub>r<sup>2</sup>) or F = -kq<sub>1</sub>q<sub>2</sub>/r<sup>2</sup>. Similarly, if we had a factor of 2 in the gas law for some reason, that would just change the values of the gas constants.
  
: And the resulting equation is then just e=m - or m=e which is beautiful and profound.  "Mass is Energy".  Without the complications, you stop thinking of it as a PROCESS for converting one into the other and get the more profound point that Mass and Energy are the exact same thing.  [[User:SteveBaker|SteveBaker]] ([[User talk:SteveBaker|talk]]) 03:33, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
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I've seen the double-struck capital "D" used commonly as a symbol for the Domain of a function (While the double-struck "R" was used for the range in that context) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.63.243|162.158.63.243]] 21:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
==Count down clock==
 
;Keep discussion of comic above this, and further discussion of countdown here below!!!
 
Any idea what's going on with the clock that's counting downwards in the banner?  Currently counting down from 20 days 16 hours? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.214.95|172.70.214.95]] 22:08, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 
:(Simultaneous edit) What is the days-hours-minutes in the box above the comic referring to? The image itself is dated yesterday, as you can see by saving it. Worst-case-scenario, is this a countdown to the end of XKCD? [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.223|108.162.245.223]] 22:11, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 
:: It's going to hit zero at around midnight on Jan 31st 2022 CST? [[User:SteveBaker|SteveBaker]] ([[User talk:SteveBaker|talk]]) 22:16, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 
:::'''Posted [[Talk:2565:_Latency#Countdown|this]] on the previous comics discussion. But lets take it here where there will be more traffic:''' --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 22:44, 10 January 2022 (UTC) -- Copy paste from previous comics discussion:
 
::::Damn you beat me to it ;-). But I have made a [[2565:_Latency#Trivia|Trivia]] here on this comics page and links to more detail on the [[xkcd Header text]] page. I believe you are a day of, but someone will likely correct me if I'm wrong. As I can see it will be January 31st, 9:59 in Randall's home town Boston.--[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 20:06, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 
:::::But damned if I can wait. Sure millions will watch the page when it goes to zero! At least it is no April 1st. :-D --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 20:10, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 
::::Yeah - you're right - I messed up.  So as I type this, it's Jan 10th 2022 at 4pm - 1600 hrs Mountain time - which is 1800 hours EST. At this moment, the countdown reads  20d 16h 0m - so Jan 30th + (18+16) hours = which is Jan 30th + 34 hours - which is Jan 31st + 10am in Boston (EST). [[User:SteveBaker|SteveBaker]] ([[User talk:SteveBaker|talk]]) 23:05, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 
:::::Hey great, can see they agree in the link to reddit below. So happy I got it right both in UTC and Boston. It will be 15:59 here in DK. Not 16:00. ;-) --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 23:44, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 
  
Counting down to Backwards Day? --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.91.88|162.158.91.88]] 23:28, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
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Does anybody know enough math to figure out what that equation is supposed to do? I really want to delete that tag.[[User:New editor|New editor]] ([[User talk:New editor|talk]]) 19:13, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
:There's a reddit thread discussing it: https://www.reddit.com/r/xkcd/comments/s0oynl/xkcd_countdown_timer_20d_21h_49m_remaining_until/ I think the most likely guess is that Randall has a new book coming out, although the time of day is weird for a book release. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 23:40, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 
::Would still seem strange if it came out that day with only promotion before being a count down. But then again, he will have the xkcd communities boiling if he gives no other hint. So every one will see if he promotes a book. Also as they wrote at the time I looked at reddit I do not think it is the end of xkcd, or Webb related. Although Webb was the first I thought about. But I mean even if it came to L2 at that day, it is not going to any specific point but just in orbit. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 23:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 
  
::The date fits the idea of it being Backwards Day (https://nationaldaycalendar.com/backward-day-january-31) but what about the choice of time? [[User:SteveBaker|SteveBaker]] ([[User talk:SteveBaker|talk]]) 03:38, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
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:The r terms are used in describing things like water treatment plants or dialysis machines, where you're trying to use fluid flow to regulate some solute.  If fluid balance is large, it means the "tank" is going to empty or dry out. I guess T is the rate at which this happens.  Not really a math thing, more of an engineering thing, seems to me.
  
Someone has noticed the image is changing with pixels added at the bottom left corner and is keeping track of it here: https://munvoseli.github.io/xkcd-countdown/ [[Special:Contributions/198.41.238.107|198.41.238.107]] 05:49, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
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==Count down clock==
:Looks like an image is "moving" into the frame because at the moment you can see some white pixel in the lower left, i.e. the black part might end up as a line as part of some comic.
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See [[Countdown in header text]]. Discussion has been moved here [[Talk:Countdown_in_header_text]]. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 11:10, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Revision as of 02:47, 6 April 2022


I don't have any idea what to put in the actual description, but whoever does should probably note that r(in) - r(out) equals zero, not one. And multiplying by a constant 0 absolutely changes the value! GreatWyrmGold (talk) 21:59, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

rout and rin are different values. The subscripts represent different instances of the same variable at different point. In the same way, you might calculate something happening over a time interval tend - tstart . 172.69.71.77 23:02, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Yes for sure they are two different values. On the other hand if μ is not 1 then the it is not just decorative! D on the other hand is just a proportionality constant, which may have a value other than 1. I have tried to put something in the explanation here. Quite a bit. Do not really now anything about Drag, so just took it from the wiki page. Also I hope someone can explain the formula in the image, as I'm sure it is just something about the flow, that would relate it to a drag equation. --Kynde (talk) 23:41, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Note that the title text is pretty much word-for-word a repeat from Randall's book *How To*. In Chapter 11: *How to Play Football*, he misuses the drag equation, and mentions this fact in more depth, in a footnote. Bit of trivia! --162.158.134.79 23:13, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Nice, I will have to check up on that. Thanks. --Kynde (talk) 23:41, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Can confirm this, the book mentions that the "traditional tribute to Euler and Bernoulli" comes from Frank White's Fluid Mechanics textbook. Clam (talk) 01:08, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
There it is, page 266 in the 1986 2nd edition: "They both have a factor ½ as a traditional tribute to Bernoulli and Euler, and both are based on the projected area..." https://books.google.com/books?id=wGweAQAAIAAJ&q=traditional -- 172.70.162.5 02:13, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Great thanks have included both references in the explanation. --Kynde (talk) 08:32, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Wait, wouldn't the values be twice as big (rather than half as big) if you left off the 1/2? 141.101.69.154 12:43, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
No. If 1/2Cd = Constant, then the new constant would be half as big as Cd since Cd=2x constant. You would just put in the 1/2 in the new version of Cd, so the new Cd is half as big as the old, and the final result the same.--Kynde (talk) 10:44, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Of course, the c^2 im e=mc^2 is just as decorative, when using natural units where c=1.... 172.68.50.171 00:29, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

And the resulting equation is then just e=m - or m=e which is beautiful and profound. "Mass is Energy". Without the complications, you stop thinking of it as a PROCESS for converting one into the other and get the more profound point that Mass and Energy are the exact same thing. SteveBaker (talk) 03:33, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. The c² isn't decorative; mc² is a measure of energy and m is not. e=mc², like f=ma, still works even if you change the size of any of the basic units (of length, time, mass) from which the units of energy and force are derived. As I see it, an equation that ties you to any definition of unit size is less profound, not more. Tom239 (talk) 17:21, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the 1/2 in the drag equation is intuitive. I understand that it is technically superfluous, but F=Pd*A and Pd=1/2*rho*u^2 so the 1/2 carries over intuitively. 172.70.98.15 (talk) (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

Agrees I had this written down in an early version of the explanation but that was edited out. Maybe I will put it in again.--Kynde (talk) 10:44, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Drag coefficients could just as easily be half as big. This is true but how is their being unitless relevant? It's more about how defining constants is partially arbitrary. Lev (talk) 08:07, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

If Cd had a unit, say it was an energy which represented some relevant value for a given material, then it would not be correct to say that it was half as much, just because 1/2 came into the equation. But if it has no units, then it is just a constant saying something about the material, and then the 1/2 could in principle be absorbed without changing anything. But as stated above 1/2 actually has physical meaning in the way it enters the equation. --Kynde (talk) 10:44, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
It doesn't make any difference. For instance, Coulomb's law works fine whether we write it F = -q1q2/(4πε0r2) or F = -kq1q2/r2. Similarly, if we had a factor of 2 in the gas law for some reason, that would just change the values of the gas constants.

I've seen the double-struck capital "D" used commonly as a symbol for the Domain of a function (While the double-struck "R" was used for the range in that context) 162.158.63.243 21:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Does anybody know enough math to figure out what that equation is supposed to do? I really want to delete that tag.New editor (talk) 19:13, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The r terms are used in describing things like water treatment plants or dialysis machines, where you're trying to use fluid flow to regulate some solute. If fluid balance is large, it means the "tank" is going to empty or dry out. I guess T is the rate at which this happens. Not really a math thing, more of an engineering thing, seems to me.

Count down clock

See Countdown in header text. Discussion has been moved here Talk:Countdown_in_header_text. --Kynde (talk) 11:10, 12 January 2022 (UTC)