Difference between revisions of "2637: Roman Numerals"
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{{incomplete|100reate500 by a LXXXT <!-- The idea behind replacing BOT with LXXXT is that BO looks like 80. --> - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}} | {{incomplete|100reate500 by a LXXXT <!-- The idea behind replacing BOT with LXXXT is that BO looks like 80. --> - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}} | ||
− | Roman numerals are an archaic system of representing numbers that uses the letters I, V, X, L, C, D, and M to represent numbers, which each letter representing a consistent value. Specifically, I represents 1, V represents 5, X represents 10, L represents 50, C represents 100, D represents 500, and M represents 1000. The rules for combining Roman numerals next to each other are that a Roman numeral is added to a Roman numeral of equal or lesser value just to its right (e.g., II=1+1=2 because 1≥1, and VI=5+1=6 because 5≥1), and a Roman number is subtracted from a Roman numeral of greater value just to its right (e.g., IV=5-1=4 because 1<5, and IX=10-1=9 because 1<10). (Also, each place must be written separately, e.g., one cannot represent 49 via IL but instead must represent the tens place and ones place separately via XL | + | Roman numerals are an archaic system of representing numbers that uses the letters I, V, X, L, C, D, and M to represent numbers, which each letter representing a consistent value. Specifically, I represents 1, V represents 5, X represents 10, L represents 50, C represents 100, D represents 500, and M represents 1000. The rules for combining Roman numerals next to each other are that a Roman numeral is added to a Roman numeral of equal or lesser value just to its right (e.g., II=1+1=2 because 1≥1, and VI=5+1=6 because 5≥1), and a Roman number is subtracted from a Roman numeral of greater value just to its right (e.g., IV=5-1=4 because 1<5, and IX=10-1=9 because 1<10). (Also, each place must be written separately, e.g., one cannot represent 49 via IL but instead must represent the tens place and ones place separately via XL IX—although the space would not be included in practice). |
The modern system of representing numbers is Hindu numerals (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9), which are so-called because they were invented in India. However, because they were introduced to Europe by Arabic merchants, Westerns often call them Hindu-Arabic numerals or sometimes just Arabic numerals. The digit 0 represents the additive identity, the digit 1 represents the multiplicative identity, 2 represents 1+1, 3 represents 1+1+1, etc… all the way to 9 representing 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1. For Hindu-Arabic numerals, each time a digit is moved one place to the left (such as from the ones place to the tens place, from the tens place to the hundreds place, or from the hundreds place to the thousands place), the value that it represents is multiplied by ten (e.g., moving 3 to the left, starting in the ones place, changes the value that it represents from three to thirty to three hundred to three thousand…). Thus, for any digit d, the string d0 represents d+d+d+d+d+d+d+d+d+d, the string d00 represents d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0, etc…. Integers larger than nine are represented by representing them as digits multiplied by powers of ten, where no power of ten is repeated, and zero is used to fill in any gaps so that it is obvious how many places each nonzero digit is to the left of the ones place. For example, sixteen cubed can be expressed as 4×10<sup>3</sup>+9×10<sup>1</sup>+6×10<sup>0</sup>. (Representations like 4×10<sup>3</sup>+5×10<sup>1</sup>+4×10<sup>1</sup>+6×10<sup>0</sup> are not allowed because 10<sup>1</sup> would be repeated, and representations like 4×10<sup>3</sup>+8×10<sup>1</sup>+16×10<sup>0</sup> are not allowed because 16 is not a digit.) However, writing it like 496 would make the digit 4 represent 4×10<sup>2</sup>, not 4×10<sup>3</sup>, so this is fixed by inserting a 0 to yield 4096. (One can think of this as expressing sixteen cubed as 4×10<sup>3</sup>+0×10<sup>2</sup>+9×10<sup>1</sup>+6×10<sup>0</sup>.) | The modern system of representing numbers is Hindu numerals (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9), which are so-called because they were invented in India. However, because they were introduced to Europe by Arabic merchants, Westerns often call them Hindu-Arabic numerals or sometimes just Arabic numerals. The digit 0 represents the additive identity, the digit 1 represents the multiplicative identity, 2 represents 1+1, 3 represents 1+1+1, etc… all the way to 9 representing 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1. For Hindu-Arabic numerals, each time a digit is moved one place to the left (such as from the ones place to the tens place, from the tens place to the hundreds place, or from the hundreds place to the thousands place), the value that it represents is multiplied by ten (e.g., moving 3 to the left, starting in the ones place, changes the value that it represents from three to thirty to three hundred to three thousand…). Thus, for any digit d, the string d0 represents d+d+d+d+d+d+d+d+d+d, the string d00 represents d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0, etc…. Integers larger than nine are represented by representing them as digits multiplied by powers of ten, where no power of ten is repeated, and zero is used to fill in any gaps so that it is obvious how many places each nonzero digit is to the left of the ones place. For example, sixteen cubed can be expressed as 4×10<sup>3</sup>+9×10<sup>1</sup>+6×10<sup>0</sup>. (Representations like 4×10<sup>3</sup>+5×10<sup>1</sup>+4×10<sup>1</sup>+6×10<sup>0</sup> are not allowed because 10<sup>1</sup> would be repeated, and representations like 4×10<sup>3</sup>+8×10<sup>1</sup>+16×10<sup>0</sup> are not allowed because 16 is not a digit.) However, writing it like 496 would make the digit 4 represent 4×10<sup>2</sup>, not 4×10<sup>3</sup>, so this is fixed by inserting a 0 to yield 4096. (One can think of this as expressing sixteen cubed as 4×10<sup>3</sup>+0×10<sup>2</sup>+9×10<sup>1</sup>+6×10<sup>0</sup>.) | ||
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where the spaces have been added for clarity. | where the spaces have been added for clarity. | ||
− | Part of the joke comes from the fact that Randall incorrectly replaces Roman numerals with modern Hindu numbers, specifically by using concatenation instead of the proper rules of addition and subtraction, and this makes the equations incorrect | + | Part of the joke comes from the fact that Randall incorrectly replaces Roman numerals with modern Hindu numbers, specifically by using concatenation instead of the proper rules of addition and subtraction, and this makes the equations incorrect. For example, II becomes 11, not 2 as it should under the correct rules for interpreting Roman numerals. Randall derives additional humor from the premise that Cueball would know Roman numerals better than Hindu numerals (as demonstrated by the fact that he does not recognize that his equations are false when interpreted using the standard rules for Hindu numerals) so that he would do math in Roman numerals and have to remember to convert his equations to Hindu numerals at the end. Schoolchildren in the West have been taught to do math with Hindu numerals, not Roman numerals, for centuries. |
In the title text, Randall applies the same idea of replacing Roman numerals with their values in Hindu numerals to strings of English words. The original string (with letters that would be interpreted as Roman numerals capitalized) is, "CheCk out thIs InnoVatIVe strIng enCoDIng I'Ve been DeVeLopIng! It's VIrtuaLLy perfeCt!" For the first word, "Check," C is replaced with the value of that Roman numeral in Hindu numerals, i.e., "100", in both instances of the word, which results in "100he100k". Unlike in the comic, Randall combines Roman numbers using the proper rules of addition and subtraction. For example, he replaces "IV" with "4", not "15", e.g., "innovative" becomes "1nno5at4e", not "1nno5at15e". (However, "I've" becomes "15e", not "4e", presumably because the apostrophe was removed after, not before, replacing the Roman numerals with Hindu numerals. However, there is not an obvious reason why Randall removed the apostrophe.) However, there are problems with this. One example is that the double L in "virtually" is replaced with 100. This correctly remembers Roman numerals' rule of adding the value of a letter to the value of an equal-valued letter just to its right, but in Roman numerals, a single number should never have multiple Vs, multiple Ls, or multiple Ds, e.g., 100 should be represented by C, not LL. This would mean that a simplistic decoding script would erroneously decode "6rtua100y" to "virtuacy", not "virtually". Thus, this string encoding system is not actually perfect. (Until the modern codification in general use today, Roman numerals weren't standardised that much, so "LL" could have been a tolerated alternative to "C". For more on that, see {{w|Roman_numerals#Classical_Roman_numerals}}. However, having the decoding script use that would not solve the problem but instead would make the decoding script replace Cs with LLs instead, e.g., "delloding sllript".) | In the title text, Randall applies the same idea of replacing Roman numerals with their values in Hindu numerals to strings of English words. The original string (with letters that would be interpreted as Roman numerals capitalized) is, "CheCk out thIs InnoVatIVe strIng enCoDIng I'Ve been DeVeLopIng! It's VIrtuaLLy perfeCt!" For the first word, "Check," C is replaced with the value of that Roman numeral in Hindu numerals, i.e., "100", in both instances of the word, which results in "100he100k". Unlike in the comic, Randall combines Roman numbers using the proper rules of addition and subtraction. For example, he replaces "IV" with "4", not "15", e.g., "innovative" becomes "1nno5at4e", not "1nno5at15e". (However, "I've" becomes "15e", not "4e", presumably because the apostrophe was removed after, not before, replacing the Roman numerals with Hindu numerals. However, there is not an obvious reason why Randall removed the apostrophe.) However, there are problems with this. One example is that the double L in "virtually" is replaced with 100. This correctly remembers Roman numerals' rule of adding the value of a letter to the value of an equal-valued letter just to its right, but in Roman numerals, a single number should never have multiple Vs, multiple Ls, or multiple Ds, e.g., 100 should be represented by C, not LL. This would mean that a simplistic decoding script would erroneously decode "6rtua100y" to "virtuacy", not "virtually". Thus, this string encoding system is not actually perfect. (Until the modern codification in general use today, Roman numerals weren't standardised that much, so "LL" could have been a tolerated alternative to "C". For more on that, see {{w|Roman_numerals#Classical_Roman_numerals}}. However, having the decoding script use that would not solve the problem but instead would make the decoding script replace Cs with LLs instead, e.g., "delloding sllript".) |
Revision as of 00:57, 25 June 2022
Roman Numerals |
Title text: 100he100k out th1s 1nno5at4e str1ng en100o501ng 15e been 500e5e50op1ng! 1t's 6rtua100y perfe100t! ...hang on, what's a "virtuacy"? |
Explanation
This explanation may be incomplete or incorrect: 100reate500 by a LXXXT - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon. If you can address this issue, please edit the page! Thanks. |
Roman numerals are an archaic system of representing numbers that uses the letters I, V, X, L, C, D, and M to represent numbers, which each letter representing a consistent value. Specifically, I represents 1, V represents 5, X represents 10, L represents 50, C represents 100, D represents 500, and M represents 1000. The rules for combining Roman numerals next to each other are that a Roman numeral is added to a Roman numeral of equal or lesser value just to its right (e.g., II=1+1=2 because 1≥1, and VI=5+1=6 because 5≥1), and a Roman number is subtracted from a Roman numeral of greater value just to its right (e.g., IV=5-1=4 because 1<5, and IX=10-1=9 because 1<10). (Also, each place must be written separately, e.g., one cannot represent 49 via IL but instead must represent the tens place and ones place separately via XL IX—although the space would not be included in practice).
The modern system of representing numbers is Hindu numerals (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9), which are so-called because they were invented in India. However, because they were introduced to Europe by Arabic merchants, Westerns often call them Hindu-Arabic numerals or sometimes just Arabic numerals. The digit 0 represents the additive identity, the digit 1 represents the multiplicative identity, 2 represents 1+1, 3 represents 1+1+1, etc… all the way to 9 representing 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1. For Hindu-Arabic numerals, each time a digit is moved one place to the left (such as from the ones place to the tens place, from the tens place to the hundreds place, or from the hundreds place to the thousands place), the value that it represents is multiplied by ten (e.g., moving 3 to the left, starting in the ones place, changes the value that it represents from three to thirty to three hundred to three thousand…). Thus, for any digit d, the string d0 represents d+d+d+d+d+d+d+d+d+d, the string d00 represents d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0+d0, etc…. Integers larger than nine are represented by representing them as digits multiplied by powers of ten, where no power of ten is repeated, and zero is used to fill in any gaps so that it is obvious how many places each nonzero digit is to the left of the ones place. For example, sixteen cubed can be expressed as 4×103+9×101+6×100. (Representations like 4×103+5×101+4×101+6×100 are not allowed because 101 would be repeated, and representations like 4×103+8×101+16×100 are not allowed because 16 is not a digit.) However, writing it like 496 would make the digit 4 represent 4×102, not 4×103, so this is fixed by inserting a 0 to yield 4096. (One can think of this as expressing sixteen cubed as 4×103+0×102+9×101+6×100.)
The original equations are:
Cueball/Randall then translated these equations into Roman numerals:
Finally, before writing the equations Randall/Cueball replaced each letter with its value in Hindu-Arabic numerals—but did not use the abovementioned rules for combining Roman numbers, instead using simple concatenation. Specifically, "I" is replaced with "1", "V" is replaced with "5", and "X" is replaced with "10". For example, for IX at the end of the last equation, "I" is replaced with "1", and "X" is replaced with "10", so "IX" becomes "110". Thus, the equations become
where the spaces have been added for clarity.
Part of the joke comes from the fact that Randall incorrectly replaces Roman numerals with modern Hindu numbers, specifically by using concatenation instead of the proper rules of addition and subtraction, and this makes the equations incorrect. For example, II becomes 11, not 2 as it should under the correct rules for interpreting Roman numerals. Randall derives additional humor from the premise that Cueball would know Roman numerals better than Hindu numerals (as demonstrated by the fact that he does not recognize that his equations are false when interpreted using the standard rules for Hindu numerals) so that he would do math in Roman numerals and have to remember to convert his equations to Hindu numerals at the end. Schoolchildren in the West have been taught to do math with Hindu numerals, not Roman numerals, for centuries.
In the title text, Randall applies the same idea of replacing Roman numerals with their values in Hindu numerals to strings of English words. The original string (with letters that would be interpreted as Roman numerals capitalized) is, "CheCk out thIs InnoVatIVe strIng enCoDIng I'Ve been DeVeLopIng! It's VIrtuaLLy perfeCt!" For the first word, "Check," C is replaced with the value of that Roman numeral in Hindu numerals, i.e., "100", in both instances of the word, which results in "100he100k". Unlike in the comic, Randall combines Roman numbers using the proper rules of addition and subtraction. For example, he replaces "IV" with "4", not "15", e.g., "innovative" becomes "1nno5at4e", not "1nno5at15e". (However, "I've" becomes "15e", not "4e", presumably because the apostrophe was removed after, not before, replacing the Roman numerals with Hindu numerals. However, there is not an obvious reason why Randall removed the apostrophe.) However, there are problems with this. One example is that the double L in "virtually" is replaced with 100. This correctly remembers Roman numerals' rule of adding the value of a letter to the value of an equal-valued letter just to its right, but in Roman numerals, a single number should never have multiple Vs, multiple Ls, or multiple Ds, e.g., 100 should be represented by C, not LL. This would mean that a simplistic decoding script would erroneously decode "6rtua100y" to "virtuacy", not "virtually". Thus, this string encoding system is not actually perfect. (Until the modern codification in general use today, Roman numerals weren't standardised that much, so "LL" could have been a tolerated alternative to "C". For more on that, see Roman_numerals#Classical_Roman_numerals. However, having the decoding script use that would not solve the problem but instead would make the decoding script replace Cs with LLs instead, e.g., "delloding sllript".)
Transcript
This transcript is incomplete. Please help editing it! Thanks. |
- [Cueball writing on a wall or a whiteboard.]
- 1+1=11
- 11+11=15
- 15+5=110
- [Caption below the panel:]
- Remember, Roman numerals are archaic, so always replace them with modern ones when doing math.
Discussion
Immediately came to this site as soon as the comic popped up 172.70.114.43 22:43, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
For anyone wondering about the alt text: "CheCk out thIs InnoVatIVe strIng enCoDIng IVe been DeVeLopIng! It's VIrtuaCy perfeCt! ...hang on, what's a "virtuacy"?" Roman numerals are in uppercase. : 162.158.90.209 23:00, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I didn't see this comment, but I decoded it above. Feel free to update with your text, which includes the casing.
- It should be virtually - LL is 50 50, C is 100. 172.70.110.121 00:37, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- By the way, this encoding is not that innovative: back when Roman numbers still meant something to people they were oftentimes hidden inside inscriptions on churches and monuments. If you ever stand in front of a church and wonder why certain letters in a sentence of an inscription are capitalized seemingly at random, this may be the reason. --172.70.250.231 06:12, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- The (almost) exact encoding style of the alt text also was used before, e.g. in works of fiction - the first I can think of is Howard Taylor's Schlock Mercenary (used for AI names) 172.70.242.45 13:41, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Relevant OEIS entry: https://oeis.org/A093788 162.158.129.117 23:43, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Well, I immediately got the comic, when I saw it, but (though I admire the effort put in) the explanation that seems to have been given is... overly long, IMO. I have no wish to invalidate all the thought put into it, but I really feel it says too much. Even by my standards (I'm often a waffler, as I 'improve' the accuracy and all-inclusiveness of such text). But don't want to rain on the existing author(s) parade, myself, so just sayin'... 162.158.159.15 02:01, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's not overly long if someone spent the time writing it. -- Hkmaly (talk) 02:10, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I wondered too when first reading but like it geeky like that. --172.68.50.15 05:37, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I've repeatedly had my edits, longer and shorter, reverted completely away. I've occasionally started the same to manage the experience. Your opinion is a breathe of fresh air but I wouldn't be worried about increases in quality that shorten the text. One can even leave concepts in by replacing them with links. 172.70.110.241 12:01, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- One thing you learn, when contributing to a wiki, is that you better be prepared to Kill Your Darlings, or have them killed by others. The many's the time I've written something I'm (eventually) quite pleased about, but it gets wiped out either by someone disagreeing with my particular form of self-satisfaction, or just completely rearranging things and either crashing through the carefully crafted copy or ruthlessly removing my radient repartee. But such is life...
- And often I feel that whoever got in there with the first footprint of explanation has not done it the way I would (surprisingly often I had the same idea, but obviously there are so many ways to do it... but here I may disagree entirely rather than "I'll happily work with it, then, however different it is...") and I might be very tempted to replace it wholesale. I don'5 think I have ever done so, but I might tweak it a lot, in bits and pieces. It may still upset an OP who finds it bears little relationship to what they submitted, but I try never to do anything beyond the general hum of the community. Coward that I am. But it can happen to anyone. 172.70.86.44 17:01, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about 'overly long', but as it stands it takes an awfully long time to come to the point. I'd be inclined to lift the basic explanation (roughly equating to the paragraph starting 'The joke is...') to the top, and only after that dive into the niceties of how each system works and what specifically is going on in the examples in the comic. 172.70.91.58 09:11, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
I, in a rather faint and not really concerned way, object to the use of the phrase 'archaic' with regard to Roman Numerals. That would imply that they aren't in use at all, whereas when I look around me I can see a number of examples of current usage of Roman Numerals, e.g. Clock Faces, Chapter Numbering (some books) and the most important, the 'Manufacture Date' of a televisual programme from the BBC shown at the bottom of the end-credits. I believe a better phrase may be 'venerable' or 'historical' or 'unmodern'. 172.70.162.5 07:46, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I was also thinking that. But maybe qualified as "archaic but still commonly seen" (or similar), were my thoughts. I was wondering if it was a local perspective, though. 'Historical' US usage is rather sparser, I imagine, than the accumulation of Old World monuments/etc, from deeper back into the times it was more usual, so making only the "stylstically old" things predominantly use them (certain clock faces, etc). Meanwhile, even our programmes broadcast on the BBC still regularly close with the date in letters (anything from this year is "MMXXII") on the final frame/line of the credits, while our other broadcasters go with contemporary numerals in the same context. (I wonder, was 1999 "MIMIC", rather than "MCMXCIX"..? I think it was...) 141.101.98.221 11:58, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- In mathematics, Roman numerals are archaic (obsolete, no longer in active use), common use is just for numbering (monarchs - themselves a somewhat archaic concept, generations of using the same name, events, sequels, volumes, paragraphs or appendices, etc.) or very occasionally for years (e.g. of construction) - "archaic" is correct even if you mean from the/an archaic period which may be the period when a civilization built the foundation for a later "classical" period ("Golden Age") (some exemptions may apply) or specifically the time of the Greek archaic era leading up to Classical (Hellenic) Greece, usually defined some time between about 800 and 480 BCE (they did (probably) originate from the Roman archaic period which overlaps with the Greek one) 172.70.242.45 13:41, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I recall that, while many 1999 films correctly used "MCMXCIX" at the end of their credit rolls, there was at least one that instead went with "MIM". Can't remember what it was, though. Also, MIMIC would be completely wrong, as that would equate to 1000 + (1000 - 1) + (100 - 1), or 2098. Dansiman (talk) 18:22, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- I wondered when someone would spot the MIMIC error (later realised I was probably confusing myself with Mimic (film), but it was hours later, not worth an edit). But, yay! At least someone else did... ;) 172.70.85.211 20:43, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
In case anyone is interested, I created a small encoder/decoder program (Python+PyQt): https://gist.github.com/MaurizioB/6bedeca961b5152006d030f56f817a2f Musicamanate (talk) 17:05, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
It's rather ironic that the hindu/arabic numerals contain zero, while roman numerals don't. By mixing a zero into the roman numerals things get confusing.
Ran500a100s 5ers1on of th1s en100o501ng 1s 4st 100o1000p50ete50y 50a100k1ng. He's ob6o5s50y forgotten that the 50etters 1, 5 and 10 are rea100y 4st 5ar1ants of 1 and 5 an500 999 not e11st 1n the 150ass99a50 50at1n a50phabet. "10" 1n part144ar 1s a Ger1000an99 1nno5at1on! (sorry, 1 4st 100o445n't res1st, tho5gh 1 al1000ost 11sh 1 ha500 - b5t 1 500ef1n1te50y 50o5e the 10or500 999 - aka "did" 1n 5nen100o500e500 10r1t1ng) --172.70.250.185 15:35, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- I figured out that you treated "U" as identical to "V", "J" as identical to "I", and "W" as identical to "X", but I'm not sure why you encoded "couldn't" as "100o445n't" - V and L are never used as subtractors, so it should be something more like "100o550500n't" or maybe "100o555n't". Dansiman (talk) 18:47, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
"virtuammmmmly" is a perfectly cromulent word! 172.70.82.3 18:23, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Since most English speakers know how Arabic numerals work (citation needed), maybe we should spend less time explaining that and more time explaining string encoding? Birdsinthewindow (talk) 21:39, 28 June 2022 (UTC)