Editing Talk:2832: Urban Planning Opinion Progression
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: Bikes are an incredibly helpful and useful tool for getting around. You don't even have to turn a city into Amsterdam. I live in Edmonton, which is by no means an urbanist utopia, and even getting around here, combining a bicycle with public transit makes it so much easier and faster to get around. The issue I face is lugging my bike with me, in which case a bike share service like Montréal's BIXI would help out for getting around. | : Bikes are an incredibly helpful and useful tool for getting around. You don't even have to turn a city into Amsterdam. I live in Edmonton, which is by no means an urbanist utopia, and even getting around here, combining a bicycle with public transit makes it so much easier and faster to get around. The issue I face is lugging my bike with me, in which case a bike share service like Montréal's BIXI would help out for getting around. | ||
: Regarding your point on vacation, first of all, most people end up going to the same places for vacation anyway. And vacation without bringing a car can very much be done, and even at high-demand times, the places where "everyone needs a car" are places where everyone will be going anyway, at which point a train just makes more sense. About a decade ago, my family took a trip from New Delhi to Goa a decade back (around 1800 km away) and we took trains to get there. We rented a car to get around in Goa and it worked pretty well. Not saying that cars aren't useful at all, but they aren't a 100% necessity. They're most useful when you're heading somewhere that's out of the way, and I've done those sorts of trips too. [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC) | : Regarding your point on vacation, first of all, most people end up going to the same places for vacation anyway. And vacation without bringing a car can very much be done, and even at high-demand times, the places where "everyone needs a car" are places where everyone will be going anyway, at which point a train just makes more sense. About a decade ago, my family took a trip from New Delhi to Goa a decade back (around 1800 km away) and we took trains to get there. We rented a car to get around in Goa and it worked pretty well. Not saying that cars aren't useful at all, but they aren't a 100% necessity. They're most useful when you're heading somewhere that's out of the way, and I've done those sorts of trips too. [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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"...by allowing cyclists to cycle in the streets with the cars". ''Allowing''? Sorry, but that's a very neo-biker (or "person on a bike", rather than an actual cyclist) attitude that unfortunately seems to pervade the mindset of drivers. At least in the UK, bicycles have been 'allowed' (indeed, obliged) to ride upon the roads, as of laws as far back as [http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/72 1885] and are legitimate road vehicles and also not supposed to be ridden on actual pavements(/sidewalks) where not explicitly allowed. Of course, the US has policies driven (c.f. jaywalking). But a bicycle is a road vehicle. Add extra permissive routes (in the same manner as allowing traffic of less than three tonnes over a bridge, without forcing everything within that limit to do so) but you'd be wrong to suggest, over here, that you'd have to ''allow'' cyclists to cycle in(/on) the streets. Though the modern 'MAMILs' are often as wrong about all this (and as damaging to the reputation of real cyclists) as far too many motorists are. Of course, this may not reflect the US situation (or state/township legislations), but then they were influenced by the car-lobby to create the jaywalking 'crime' as well, so I really wouldn't be surprised. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.62|162.158.74.62]] 22:16, 23 September 2023 (UTC) | "...by allowing cyclists to cycle in the streets with the cars". ''Allowing''? Sorry, but that's a very neo-biker (or "person on a bike", rather than an actual cyclist) attitude that unfortunately seems to pervade the mindset of drivers. At least in the UK, bicycles have been 'allowed' (indeed, obliged) to ride upon the roads, as of laws as far back as [http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/72 1885] and are legitimate road vehicles and also not supposed to be ridden on actual pavements(/sidewalks) where not explicitly allowed. Of course, the US has policies driven (c.f. jaywalking). But a bicycle is a road vehicle. Add extra permissive routes (in the same manner as allowing traffic of less than three tonnes over a bridge, without forcing everything within that limit to do so) but you'd be wrong to suggest, over here, that you'd have to ''allow'' cyclists to cycle in(/on) the streets. Though the modern 'MAMILs' are often as wrong about all this (and as damaging to the reputation of real cyclists) as far too many motorists are. Of course, this may not reflect the US situation (or state/township legislations), but then they were influenced by the car-lobby to create the jaywalking 'crime' as well, so I really wouldn't be surprised. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.62|162.158.74.62]] 22:16, 23 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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:The insistent distinction between "people on bikes" and "cyclists" reminds me of [https://satwcomic.com/how-to-use-a-bike this Scandinavia and the World comic] pointing out just what a bizarre attitude that is in an environment that *actually* caters to cyclists rather than saying "well you're a road vehicle the same as cars so what's the problem" and ignoring the rather drastic difference in lethality between the two and hateful attitudes expressed by motorists towards the bicycles they're obliged to share the road with. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.98.75|172.71.98.75]] 17:00, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | :The insistent distinction between "people on bikes" and "cyclists" reminds me of [https://satwcomic.com/how-to-use-a-bike this Scandinavia and the World comic] pointing out just what a bizarre attitude that is in an environment that *actually* caters to cyclists rather than saying "well you're a road vehicle the same as cars so what's the problem" and ignoring the rather drastic difference in lethality between the two and hateful attitudes expressed by motorists towards the bicycles they're obliged to share the road with. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.98.75|172.71.98.75]] 17:00, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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The summation of the situation:<br> | The summation of the situation:<br> | ||
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:::It's a hen and egg thing. If everyone is driving, you don't need to put anything in the video, because there is noone to see it. But if the storefronts are not attractive thats one less reason to walk. And crossing a huge parking lot may in theory be walkable, but it is not really an enviroment attractive to walk through. --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 09:00, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | :::It's a hen and egg thing. If everyone is driving, you don't need to put anything in the video, because there is noone to see it. But if the storefronts are not attractive thats one less reason to walk. And crossing a huge parking lot may in theory be walkable, but it is not really an enviroment attractive to walk through. --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 09:00, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
:::No further expense? Apparently gas and car repair is free in Florida. Jokes aside, you really don't seem able to imagine a car-free shopping area. Look up image results for "Marktstraße" (German for ''market street''). Edit: parking and zoning laws prohibit such development in the US (there is barely any parking per shop and the upper floors are usually apartments) so you ''literally'' may have never seen these awesome places that are all over European city centers. [[User:ChaoticNeutralCzech|ChaoticNeutralCzech]] ([[User talk:ChaoticNeutralCzech|talk]]) 11:04, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | :::No further expense? Apparently gas and car repair is free in Florida. Jokes aside, you really don't seem able to imagine a car-free shopping area. Look up image results for "Marktstraße" (German for ''market street''). Edit: parking and zoning laws prohibit such development in the US (there is barely any parking per shop and the upper floors are usually apartments) so you ''literally'' may have never seen these awesome places that are all over European city centers. [[User:ChaoticNeutralCzech|ChaoticNeutralCzech]] ([[User talk:ChaoticNeutralCzech|talk]]) 11:04, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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I would be weary of that "Netherlands" guy. https://what-if.xkcd.com/53/ https://what-if.xkcd.com/54/ and others [[Special:Contributions/162.158.22.17|162.158.22.17]] 23:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC) | I would be weary of that "Netherlands" guy. https://what-if.xkcd.com/53/ https://what-if.xkcd.com/54/ and others [[Special:Contributions/162.158.22.17|162.158.22.17]] 23:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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<nowiki>*Reads the line about 'all of Europe agrees' from the UK. Laughs mirthlessly*</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.218|172.70.85.218]] 09:47, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | <nowiki>*Reads the line about 'all of Europe agrees' from the UK. Laughs mirthlessly*</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.218|172.70.85.218]] 09:47, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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(Just a meta-note, to a recent editor of this page, that using the established {{template|unsigned ip}} and {{template|unsigned}} templates (ideally with the two parameters of appropriate username/ip and then the timestamp, which you clearly identified and used) makes for a much more readable, consistent and brief markup. Like you'd not normally want to mess with the formatting personally to 'emulate' the {{template|Citation needed}} tag. And if you're trying to do something different from established measures, then I really couldn't see it.) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.53|141.101.69.53]] 16:22, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | (Just a meta-note, to a recent editor of this page, that using the established {{template|unsigned ip}} and {{template|unsigned}} templates (ideally with the two parameters of appropriate username/ip and then the timestamp, which you clearly identified and used) makes for a much more readable, consistent and brief markup. Like you'd not normally want to mess with the formatting personally to 'emulate' the {{template|Citation needed}} tag. And if you're trying to do something different from established measures, then I really couldn't see it.) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.53|141.101.69.53]] 16:22, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
:Dear [[User:141.101.69.53]] and/or [[User:172.70.85.58]], the standard for MediaWiki is to ''subst:'' these templates. See {{w|Template:Unsigned_IP}} and {{w|Template:Unsigned}}. You don't have to do so, but unless you have a strong principled compelling and convincing reason, it is inappropriate to revert and change other editors' choices. Your desire for a "readable, consistent[,] and brief markup" is the exact opposite of the design intention. Once this is entered, it is not to be edited, changed, or fiddled with, and leaving it as a template encourages that kind of fiddling, which is inappropriate. It's supposed to be a record of who entered what when, and that's not something that is ever supposed to change, nor should it need to change. So leave it alone! What is your basis for claiming "established measures"? It can't be either this wiki nor the English Wikipedia nor Mediawiki in general, since none of those things support you. I put this into a topic so it's less distracting to others, hopefully. [[User:JohnHawkinson|JohnHawkinson]] ([[User talk:JohnHawkinson|talk]]) 18:46, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | :Dear [[User:141.101.69.53]] and/or [[User:172.70.85.58]], the standard for MediaWiki is to ''subst:'' these templates. See {{w|Template:Unsigned_IP}} and {{w|Template:Unsigned}}. You don't have to do so, but unless you have a strong principled compelling and convincing reason, it is inappropriate to revert and change other editors' choices. Your desire for a "readable, consistent[,] and brief markup" is the exact opposite of the design intention. Once this is entered, it is not to be edited, changed, or fiddled with, and leaving it as a template encourages that kind of fiddling, which is inappropriate. It's supposed to be a record of who entered what when, and that's not something that is ever supposed to change, nor should it need to change. So leave it alone! What is your basis for claiming "established measures"? It can't be either this wiki nor the English Wikipedia nor Mediawiki in general, since none of those things support you. I put this into a topic so it's less distracting to others, hopefully. [[User:JohnHawkinson|JohnHawkinson]] ([[User talk:JohnHawkinson|talk]]) 18:46, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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