Editing Talk:2218: Wardrobe

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I did a change to the explanation, rewriting every E.U. and U.K. as EU and UK. Now I noticed that Randall writes E.U. in the comic itself. I (as a resident of the EU) have never seen it with the E.U. writing before (at least I think so). Should we use Randall's version in the explanation? Should we mention this in Trivia? --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 09:11, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

:This idea is…nonsensical. The question of whether to write EU or E.U. is solely a question of style, and it's not something that the EU can dictate. It is up to Randall to choose his own style, and up to this blog (explainxkcd) to choose our own, though we'd likely mirror Randall. For instance, one finds the New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/03/world/europe/boris-johnson-brexit-eu.html mostly] [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/01/world/europe/brexit-irish-border.html writes] [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/world/europe/brexit-european-union-britain.html "E.U."] but sometimes writes [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/23/opinion/brexit-boris-johnson.html "EU"]. The AP Stylebook specifies "'''European Union''' ''EU'' (no periods)." The Washington Post seems to [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/eu-leaders-consider-delaying-brexit-with-the-end-of-january-as-the-likeliest-date/2019/10/23/ac0e128e-f514-11e9-b2d2-1f37c9d82dbb_story.html mostly] [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/10/17/what-is-happening-with-brexit-now-boris-johnsons-plans-irish-border-eu-explained/ use] "E.U." Regardless of what is chosen, the explanation is not the proper place to lecture readers on style preferences — ''Removed''. [[User:JohnHawkinson|JohnHawkinson]] ([[User talk:JohnHawkinson|talk]]) 20:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
::That's why I suggested to discuss it and to put it to TRIVIA (not to the explanation). However, writing it as E.U. seems to be mostly an American thing, which might be why Randall uses it, but I've not seen it before. By the way, of course the EU can dictate how it wants to be called. It gave the name to itself (but with a quick search I found no statement on a self-preferred-writing, but the EUs main homepage seems to use EU consequently: [[https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en]])
:::I don't want to go too-too far down this path, but, '''No'''. 1: <s>You've misrepresented your action. You didn't suggest "discussion and to put it to trivia," you added it to the explanation itself, see [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2218:_Wardrobe&diff=181566&oldid=181565 181566].</s> 2) It's certainly not solely an American thing. The BBC seems to use E.U. a fair bit on their web site, but also not consistently. 3) dic·tate: ''To issue orders or commands''; the EU has no authority to issue orders or to prescribe how others write punctuate their abbreviation. They can make a polite request, but it is not a dictate because they lack any such worldwide language dominion. 4) This does not belong in trivia at all. It is not trivia about this comic, it is trivia about the spelling/punctuation of a word that that this comic happens to use, and a well-known word at that. It would be as if the comic told us that "wardrobe" can mean "The excrement of the badger" (OED sense 1(b)). The fact that there are some English speakers who might not be familiar with Narnia or the way it interacts with this comic justifies a substantial discussion and discursion about Narnia and C.S. Lewis, but there is no analogous reasoning for E.U. It's my intention to remove your trivia section, but I'm conscious that doing so might give the impression of "edit warring," so I'm posting about it here first to see if there is any feedback from other editors before going ahead with it. 5) Please use an edit summary when you edit. You seem to do so sometimes, but not consistently. It helps everyone out. Thank you. [[User:JohnHawkinson|JohnHawkinson]] ([[User talk:JohnHawkinson|talk]]) 22:47, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
::::According to the [https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/styleguide_english_dgt_en.pdf EU style guide] section 7.2 both acronyms and initialisms don't use points {{unsigned|108.162.249.202|00:25, 25 October 2019‎}}
:::: Thanks for the extensive feedback. 1) I suggested in this initial comment in the talk page to discuss the use of E.U. vs EU, and wether or not we should dedicate trivia to it, after I made the edit you gave the link to. As I also stated in this initial comment, along with my - maybe stupid - reason. I did however not put any note about how to write it/how Randall writes it into the explanation, as I did not feel that to be the right place. However another user added it, which made it apperant to me, that others see it as I do, that it is a talking point. 2) I never said solely American. Neither did I say all of Europe uses it the other way round. 3) Of course it cannot order anyone (apart from maybe it's own employees) how to write a certain word. But most institutions and people have set a certain way how to write their name, Jern.Haukinsum. (Sorry for the missuse of the word dictate, I am (as should be clear latest by now) not a native speaker.) 4) Trivia in this wiki often contains notes on spelling errors, etc., so I figured using a -apperantly not wrong, but - unusual spelling could be included there. Do not fear an edit war. In a few hours I will go for a vacation of more than a week, and I will not do phone-edits on this wiki during that time, and likely will not put much energy into this article afterwards. :) However I of course would prefer consens in one or the other direction. So if another registered user comments here, either for or against having it in trivia, and for or against having "E.U." throughout the explanation, I would happily accept that. 5) thanks for the reminder. I tend to forget to use that, even though it is often very useful! --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 08:31, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

:::: It is perfectly valid trivia, as the comic uses one term while the actual European Union uses another. It has nothing to do with allowing the EU to control anything--it's just noting that Randall didn't use the official abbreviation, but a variation mostly used in the US. 

:::: Such trivia is not uncommon at all. If Randall does something in a nonstandard way, or a way that is common in only one country, such information is often included in the trivia section. The whole point of the trivia section is that it covers things that are only tangentially related to the comic. Anything that is *actually* related goes in the main description.

:::: I won't do it myself, mostly because I also don't want to get into an edit war. But I do think your logic is poor, and suggest that it should be put back. [[User:Trlkly|Trlkly]] ([[User talk:Trlkly|talk]]) 14:09, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

::: [[User:Lupo|Lupo]], I was wrong above. I incorrectly said you "misrepresented" yourself and that's not the case. I was hasty and sloppy and should have checked more carefully before making that kind of accusation (which I have now <s>struck through</s>).  The change was actually made in [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2218:_Wardrobe&diff=181576&oldid=181574 181576] by [[User:Kynde|Kynde]]. I apologize.
::: ¶ [[User:Trlkly|Trlkly]] I'm not sure what you mean when you say "'''valid''' trivia." The issue is not "validity," which would be whether the claim is true (I think!). It's whether it rises to the level of being appropriate for an understanding of the comic, or if it is irrelevant. In this case, because the question of how to spell EU has nothing to do with the message of the comic and would be equally irrelevant on any discussion of absolutely any comic, article, book, artwork, etc. that uses the E.U. spelling, it seems to me that it isn't merited. If Randall had some clever wordplay on how the EU lacked periods (some kind of sporting or ''pun''ctuation pun?), that would be an example of where such a section would be appropriate. You suggest if Randall did something in a "nonstandard way" or "common in only one country" it might be appropriate; although I disagree with that standard (esp. the latter! There are plenty of things that are common only in America that Randall does that aren't appropriate for this wiki), it's not met here. There's no "standard" and using E.U. is not common only in America. 
::: ¶ I'm kind of struck by the citation from the [[User:108.162.249.202|IP editor]] because reading the citation makes me less convinced that the EU is trying to politely ask others to punctuate that way, rather than more convinced: "This Style Guide is intended primarily for English-language authors and translators, both in-house and freelance, working for the European Commission. …" It does not purport to even ask others to omit periods, and not even specific to "EU." It's just a general rule for EU publications: "As a general principle, initialisms are written without points."
::: ¶ As for an edit war, well, it can't even "be put back" because it has not [yet?] been removed. It's still my intention to remove it, but I don't want to stop you from putting forth a more convincing argument.  [[User:JohnHawkinson|JohnHawkinson]] ([[User talk:JohnHawkinson|talk]]) 21:41, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Huh, that's one way to boost the Narnian tourist industry. Good idea, Mr. Tumnus. [[User:GreatWyrmGold|GreatWyrmGold]] ([[User talk:GreatWyrmGold|talk]]) 12:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


;Title text
While it's clearly referring to the time remaining before 31/10, it ''could'' also be referring to the Government's proposed schedule for getting the withdrawal agreement bill through the House of Commons. (It'd still have to go through the House of Lords, and they may very well take their time.) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.64|141.101.98.64]] 22:41, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

;Background
Not sure if this is relevant or should make its way onto the main page - I'm a newbie. However ... the "How To" book tour visited Oxford on 11 Oct. Oxford was the home of C.S.Lewis, the Sheldonian Theatre is maybe 200m from ''The Eagle and Child'' pub, which was the Inklings' watering hole. And during the interview, Randall was asked about Brexit. Could these things have come together to provoke this comic? [[User:Exilefromgroggs|Exilefromgroggs]] ([[User talk:Exilefromgroggs|talk]]) 23:15, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
:That could be relevant, if not elsewhere in the trivia section. Please refrain from starting new sections in the discussion. (Another had already done so, but I also removed that) --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 09:29, 22 October 2019 (UTC)


Love when he makes comics about Narnia :-) And sooo funy, if the whole brexit situation was not sooo sad... --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 09:29, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm bookmarking this. This is one of the best explanations of the NI border problem with respect to Brexit I have seen [[User:Jeremyp|Jeremyp]] ([[User talk:Jeremyp|talk]]) 13:54, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Ignore the time speed difference: imagine what would the presence of armed creatures do with speed of negotiations ... especially given how I expect would they react on so many people "visiting". -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 23:19, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Better yet,  have the White Witch turn the entire House of Lords to stone.  [[User:Cellocgw|Cellocgw]] ([[User talk:Cellocgw|talk]]) 11:54, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
:How would that help? Apart from creating problems with letting any actual Brexit progress we get proceed, and all the non-Brexit issues that need to be looked at, the Lords aren't even the major intractable element here. Depending on one's perspective and the time of commentary, that's more likely to be one or more of the ERG/Rebel Conservatives/DUP/Government/everyone-but-the-Government/the-current-PM/everyone-but-the-current-PM in the Commons. But this is a polarising discussion in itself and not worth bashing around who believes exactly what in here (never mind who is right), and whether Brexit is actually a Deplorable Word or just part of the Deep Magic of the Stone Table. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.158.213|162.158.158.213]] 19:07, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

The text currently states that Narnia would be forbidden from joining the EU as it is a monarchy. In fact, several EU member states are monarchies. This includes the UK, a constitutional monarchy. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.158.193|162.158.158.193]] 19:59, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

: The exact wording of the rule is: "Membership requires that the candidate country has achieved stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy." This is broadly true of the member states you are referring to, since the monarch has significantly limited power over its parliament, but not true of Narnia since there is no such parliament. There are also problems with human rights violations that would disqualify it, and there is no obvious market economy either.
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	The text currently states that Narnia would be forbidden from joining the EU as it is a monarchy. In fact, several EU member states are monarchies. This includes the UK, a constitutional monarchy. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.158.193\|162.158.158.193]] 19:59, 26 October 2019 (UTC)		The text currently states that Narnia would be forbidden from joining the EU as it is a monarchy. In fact, several EU member states are monarchies. This includes the UK, a constitutional monarchy. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.158.193\|162.158.158.193]] 19:59, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

−	: The exact wording of the rule is: "Membership requires that the candidate country has achieved stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy." This is broadly true of the member states you are referring to, since the monarch has significantly limited power over its parliament, but not true of Narnia since there is no such parliament. There are also problems with human rights violations that would disqualify it, and there is no obvious market economy either. ~~[[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.20\|162.158.159.20]] 21:10, 27 October 2019 (UTC)~~	+	: The exact wording of the rule is: "Membership requires that the candidate country has achieved stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy." This is broadly true of the member states you are referring to, since the monarch has significantly limited power over its parliament, but not true of Narnia since there is no such parliament. There are also problems with human rights violations that would disqualify it, and there is no obvious market economy either.