Editing Talk:1455: Trolley Problem
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::Nowhere does it say there are people on the trolley. You are assuming that there are. I am assuming the opposite — that it is a runaway and no one is aboard; otherwise someone would be able to apply the brakes.[[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.94|108.162.216.94]] 15:06, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | ::Nowhere does it say there are people on the trolley. You are assuming that there are. I am assuming the opposite — that it is a runaway and no one is aboard; otherwise someone would be able to apply the brakes.[[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.94|108.162.216.94]] 15:06, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
:::My response was an off the cuff joke, it doesn't matter whether there are people on board, whether they would survive, whether they could pull the brakes on, if the brakes have failed, whether you could fire an orange portal in front of the 5 people and a blue one after them, etc etc etc. The importants part is the second half of my statement, that its easy to cheat, and construct ways to avoid the hypothetical situation, or reasons why it could never happen in the first place. Once you accept the hypothetical limits of the situation, that is where the interesting philosophical questions lie. --[[User:Pudder|Pudder]] ([[User talk:Pudder|talk]]) 15:30, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | :::My response was an off the cuff joke, it doesn't matter whether there are people on board, whether they would survive, whether they could pull the brakes on, if the brakes have failed, whether you could fire an orange portal in front of the 5 people and a blue one after them, etc etc etc. The importants part is the second half of my statement, that its easy to cheat, and construct ways to avoid the hypothetical situation, or reasons why it could never happen in the first place. Once you accept the hypothetical limits of the situation, that is where the interesting philosophical questions lie. --[[User:Pudder|Pudder]] ([[User talk:Pudder|talk]]) 15:30, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
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::The correct answer is to have a moral trolley company that trains its workers to OSHA rules; thus the correct answer would be to throw the lever to head towards the worker, confident that the worker has been trained to listen to the "singing of the rails" indicating an approaching vehicle and will jump out of the way. [[User:Seebert|Seebert]] ([[User talk:Seebert|talk]]) 13:49, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | ::The correct answer is to have a moral trolley company that trains its workers to OSHA rules; thus the correct answer would be to throw the lever to head towards the worker, confident that the worker has been trained to listen to the "singing of the rails" indicating an approaching vehicle and will jump out of the way. [[User:Seebert|Seebert]] ([[User talk:Seebert|talk]]) 13:49, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
:::In the original problem, all 6 potential victims are bound and helpless and none of them are "workers". [[User:Smperron|Smperron]] ([[User talk:Smperron|talk]]) 14:07, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | :::In the original problem, all 6 potential victims are bound and helpless and none of them are "workers". [[User:Smperron|Smperron]] ([[User talk:Smperron|talk]]) 14:07, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
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The trolley problem continues: The trolley is under control, but heading towards a bend. If the driver brakes now, then the five people hidden round the corner will survive. You could certainly make the driver brake by pushing someone onto the track. If you would divert the trolley in the original scenario, would you also push a random stranger into the path of an oncoming train, and if not, why not. Does the more visceral act of pushing someone onto a track make this morally different? [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.201|141.101.98.201]] 20:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | The trolley problem continues: The trolley is under control, but heading towards a bend. If the driver brakes now, then the five people hidden round the corner will survive. You could certainly make the driver brake by pushing someone onto the track. If you would divert the trolley in the original scenario, would you also push a random stranger into the path of an oncoming train, and if not, why not. Does the more visceral act of pushing someone onto a track make this morally different? [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.201|141.101.98.201]] 20:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
: This is how I heard it back around 10 years ago - Out of control trolley heading towards 5 people who would die, but you could save them if you pushed a person onto the track thereby derailing the trolley (and killing the pushee) - but when a person answered "Why yes, I would push the person", you would reply with "But why didn't you choose to sacrifice yourself?" And then the real conversation would commence. [[User:Zang|Zang]] | : This is how I heard it back around 10 years ago - Out of control trolley heading towards 5 people who would die, but you could save them if you pushed a person onto the track thereby derailing the trolley (and killing the pushee) - but when a person answered "Why yes, I would push the person", you would reply with "But why didn't you choose to sacrifice yourself?" And then the real conversation would commence. [[User:Zang|Zang]] | ||
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:[http://www.philosophyexperiments.com/fatman/Default4.aspx The statistics] show that far fewer people will push the person onto the track than would change the lever. As you say, its far more visceral and personal to push someone than to flick a switch. {{unsigned|Pudder}} | :[http://www.philosophyexperiments.com/fatman/Default4.aspx The statistics] show that far fewer people will push the person onto the track than would change the lever. As you say, its far more visceral and personal to push someone than to flick a switch. {{unsigned|Pudder}} | ||
:(Without checking that link, which probably contains the reasons why what follows is incorrect), my first thought is that if I'm in a position to push a person onto a track, I'm probably close enough to myself run onto (or at least close enough to) the track, waving my arms to alert the driver, perhaps at my own risk. Also, I was on a train that ran into a (small, recently felled) tree on the line, the other day. Not relevent, probably, but an interesting synchronicity to me. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.247|141.101.98.247]] 16:51, 5 December 2014 (UTC) | :(Without checking that link, which probably contains the reasons why what follows is incorrect), my first thought is that if I'm in a position to push a person onto a track, I'm probably close enough to myself run onto (or at least close enough to) the track, waving my arms to alert the driver, perhaps at my own risk. Also, I was on a train that ran into a (small, recently felled) tree on the line, the other day. Not relevent, probably, but an interesting synchronicity to me. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.247|141.101.98.247]] 16:51, 5 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
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Depending on the speed of the trolley and the steepness of the turn after the points, the trolley could derail anyway, saving the lives of all six but bringing a hastened demise to anyone on board. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.250.204|108.162.250.204]] 02:06, 5 December 2014 (UTC) | Depending on the speed of the trolley and the steepness of the turn after the points, the trolley could derail anyway, saving the lives of all six but bringing a hastened demise to anyone on board. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.250.204|108.162.250.204]] 02:06, 5 December 2014 (UTC) | ||