Difference between revisions of "Talk:984: Space Launch System"

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Technically, von Braun wasn't captured.  He voluntarily defected.  He was wandering Germany because he had chosen to no longer support Hitler, so to stay at the concentration camp where he worked, or anywhere where a Nazi soldier could find him was suicide, so he escaped and was wandering out alone.  He surrendered and defected to the first allied troops he saw, which just happened to be American.  This is why he worked on the space programme instead of being shot on sight.  By the time he was building American rockets, he hadn't been a Nazi for years.[[Special:Contributions/76.29.225.28|76.29.225.28]] 14:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 
Technically, von Braun wasn't captured.  He voluntarily defected.  He was wandering Germany because he had chosen to no longer support Hitler, so to stay at the concentration camp where he worked, or anywhere where a Nazi soldier could find him was suicide, so he escaped and was wandering out alone.  He surrendered and defected to the first allied troops he saw, which just happened to be American.  This is why he worked on the space programme instead of being shot on sight.  By the time he was building American rockets, he hadn't been a Nazi for years.[[Special:Contributions/76.29.225.28|76.29.225.28]] 14:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
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:You're way off the mark. He was never opposed to the Nazis per se, but did understandably start grumbling a bit when he realized this Endsieg thing wasn't really working out. He and his team left the base because they, again understandably, did not want to be prisoners of the Red Army and Soviet Russia. Then, when the Americans finally caught up with them, he surrendered himself, avoiding execution by guards at the same time. --[[User:Qwach|Qwach]] ([[User talk:Qwach|talk]]) 02:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
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:"He hadn't been a Nazi for years" -- really, this is begging the question of how you determine whether someone "is a Nazi" or not. Would you say that anyone who ever joined the Nazi party "is a Nazi," despite the fact that many of them probably did so for social expedience rather than because they actually agreed with Nazi philosophy? And would you then ignore the fact that many modern-day skinheads or neo-nazi's aren't formally registered with any national-socialist party? And, if you get around this problem by ignoring party registration altogether, and you simply say that someone "is a Nazi" if they hold views which concur with the views of the Nazi party, then how do you measure someone's views? How do you determine whether someone's views are sufficiently-similar to the Nazi party's to call them a Nazi? If someone were to say "sure, I hate Jews, but we probably shouldn't murder them all," would they be sufficiently Nazi-esque to "be a Nazi" or would their dissent make them "not a Nazi?" In conclusion, to say conclusively that von Braun "was a Nazi" or "wasn't a Nazi" at any particular point in time is probably nearly impossible, and not worth our time. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.221.249|108.162.221.249]] 19:12, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
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So he was one of the good guys?
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Not like the other guards and related personnel who didn't want anyone to know they were intimately involved in any of what they were so intimately involved with?
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Someone tell me how the USA isn't a working example of Nazi Germany.[[User:Weatherlawyer| I used Google News BEFORE it was clickbait]] ([[User talk:Weatherlawyer|talk]]) 08:01, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
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:This may be quite late but I'd like to point out that von Braun was not just member of the NSDAP (the Nazi party) but of the SS as well which goes beyond simple opportunism or group pressure. And he actually visited concentration camps and even selected "workers" (for V2 production) personally, so there is no doubt that von Braun was a Nazi war criminal. He was just never convicted because he was too useful (which was unfortunately the rule rather than an exception at the time). --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.90.78|162.158.90.78]] 19:45, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
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;Incomplete
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Oh, this comic is one of the "more complex" ones. The time line (not the comic sequence) is starting with the US failures to archive space flight in the 1950's, then referring to Nazis, and by the end we are on the current US space policy, which is also highly questionable.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 19:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
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Not sure what you mean by one of the "more complex" ones, it is actually pretty straightforward. Some nitpicking though: there was no US failure to achieve space flight in the 50s; both the US and the USSR did it within 4 months of each other at the end of 1957/beginning of 1958. A little history lesson:
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    The Space Race didn't begin until July of 1955, when the US announced its intention to launch Earth-orbiting satellites sometime between July 1st 1957 and December 31st 1958. The USSR followed suit shortly afterwards, and by the end of August 1955 the Soviet Academy of Sciences created a commission (i.e. offered support and possibly some sort of incentive) for the sole purpose of beating the US into space - which they ended up doing with Sputnik 1 (10/04/57) and 2 (11/03/57). The creation of that commission is considered the start of the space race. The US launched its first successful satellite a few months after the Sputniks, the Explorer 1, on February 1, 1958, well within what most people would call the 1950s. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.80|108.162.216.80]] 19:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
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Which is not to say that Maria Cary is a rocket scientist or not, as the case may be.[[User:Weatherlawyer| I used Google News BEFORE it was clickbait]] ([[User talk:Weatherlawyer|talk]]) 08:21, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
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Doh Shania Twain. (It's amazing what you can learn when you check your spelling.)[[User:Weatherlawyer| I used Google News BEFORE it was clickbait]] ([[User talk:Weatherlawyer|talk]]) 08:21, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
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Amazing how Randall can take heinous ideas of which any rational person would be ashamed to even think, put them in the mouth of Blackhat, and it's not only fine, but hilarious. Bravo. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.236|108.162.219.236]] 18:41, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
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"Once the rockets go up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department..."[[Special:Contributions/173.245.50.174|173.245.50.174]] 04:40, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
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Personally, I don't get why using Nazi scientists is considered abhorrent. The fuckers who gassed Jews just for the hell of it? Yes, they're despicable. But the rocket scientists who built spacecraft? Fact is, they knew what they were doing, and were good to further our technology. They're ability to advance science is a positive quality, which does not in any way diminish their horrible qualities. Like all human beings, they had a good part, even if their bad vastly overshadows it. [[User:HumaneEngineer|HumaneEngineer]] ([[User talk:HumaneEngineer|talk]]) 02:01, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 02:01, 27 September 2018

But then we built a whole pile of rockets after that. Apollo, moon landing, mars rover, etc. Boo Black Hat.06:53, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

"Apollo, moon landing" -- that is, in fact, the Saturn V, built by von Braun, captured Nazi scientist, and his team, largely captured Nazi scientists. Yes, other rockets were built after the Saturn V, but as pointed out in the strip, none have been bigger or more powerful. "Finally, rockets that improve on the ones we had 40 years ago."
The first Mars lander (true, not a rover), Viking I, was launched on an Titan/Centaur. The Centaur was a co-creation of Krafft A. Ehricke, nazi scientist.
Mars Sojourner, a rover, part of the Mars Pathfinder mission, was launched on a Delta II rocket. The Delta family of rockets are based on the Thor ballistic missile. The Thor was originally co-developed by Dr. Adolph K. Thiel, Nazi scientist.
You see where this is going? -- 212.149.48.43 (talk) (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

Technically, von Braun wasn't captured. He voluntarily defected. He was wandering Germany because he had chosen to no longer support Hitler, so to stay at the concentration camp where he worked, or anywhere where a Nazi soldier could find him was suicide, so he escaped and was wandering out alone. He surrendered and defected to the first allied troops he saw, which just happened to be American. This is why he worked on the space programme instead of being shot on sight. By the time he was building American rockets, he hadn't been a Nazi for years.76.29.225.28 14:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

You're way off the mark. He was never opposed to the Nazis per se, but did understandably start grumbling a bit when he realized this Endsieg thing wasn't really working out. He and his team left the base because they, again understandably, did not want to be prisoners of the Red Army and Soviet Russia. Then, when the Americans finally caught up with them, he surrendered himself, avoiding execution by guards at the same time. --Qwach (talk) 02:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
"He hadn't been a Nazi for years" -- really, this is begging the question of how you determine whether someone "is a Nazi" or not. Would you say that anyone who ever joined the Nazi party "is a Nazi," despite the fact that many of them probably did so for social expedience rather than because they actually agreed with Nazi philosophy? And would you then ignore the fact that many modern-day skinheads or neo-nazi's aren't formally registered with any national-socialist party? And, if you get around this problem by ignoring party registration altogether, and you simply say that someone "is a Nazi" if they hold views which concur with the views of the Nazi party, then how do you measure someone's views? How do you determine whether someone's views are sufficiently-similar to the Nazi party's to call them a Nazi? If someone were to say "sure, I hate Jews, but we probably shouldn't murder them all," would they be sufficiently Nazi-esque to "be a Nazi" or would their dissent make them "not a Nazi?" In conclusion, to say conclusively that von Braun "was a Nazi" or "wasn't a Nazi" at any particular point in time is probably nearly impossible, and not worth our time. 108.162.221.249 19:12, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

So he was one of the good guys? Not like the other guards and related personnel who didn't want anyone to know they were intimately involved in any of what they were so intimately involved with? Someone tell me how the USA isn't a working example of Nazi Germany. I used Google News BEFORE it was clickbait (talk) 08:01, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

This may be quite late but I'd like to point out that von Braun was not just member of the NSDAP (the Nazi party) but of the SS as well which goes beyond simple opportunism or group pressure. And he actually visited concentration camps and even selected "workers" (for V2 production) personally, so there is no doubt that von Braun was a Nazi war criminal. He was just never convicted because he was too useful (which was unfortunately the rule rather than an exception at the time). --162.158.90.78 19:45, 18 April 2018 (UTC)


Incomplete

Oh, this comic is one of the "more complex" ones. The time line (not the comic sequence) is starting with the US failures to archive space flight in the 1950's, then referring to Nazis, and by the end we are on the current US space policy, which is also highly questionable.--Dgbrt (talk) 19:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by one of the "more complex" ones, it is actually pretty straightforward. Some nitpicking though: there was no US failure to achieve space flight in the 50s; both the US and the USSR did it within 4 months of each other at the end of 1957/beginning of 1958. A little history lesson:

    The Space Race didn't begin until July of 1955, when the US announced its intention to launch Earth-orbiting satellites sometime between July 1st 1957 and December 31st 1958. The USSR followed suit shortly afterwards, and by the end of August 1955 the Soviet Academy of Sciences created a commission (i.e. offered support and possibly some sort of incentive) for the sole purpose of beating the US into space - which they ended up doing with Sputnik 1 (10/04/57) and 2 (11/03/57). The creation of that commission is considered the start of the space race. The US launched its first successful satellite a few months after the Sputniks, the Explorer 1, on February 1, 1958, well within what most people would call the 1950s. 108.162.216.80 19:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Which is not to say that Maria Cary is a rocket scientist or not, as the case may be. I used Google News BEFORE it was clickbait (talk) 08:21, 22 January 2015 (UTC) Doh Shania Twain. (It's amazing what you can learn when you check your spelling.) I used Google News BEFORE it was clickbait (talk) 08:21, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Amazing how Randall can take heinous ideas of which any rational person would be ashamed to even think, put them in the mouth of Blackhat, and it's not only fine, but hilarious. Bravo. 108.162.219.236 18:41, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

"Once the rockets go up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department..."173.245.50.174 04:40, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I don't get why using Nazi scientists is considered abhorrent. The fuckers who gassed Jews just for the hell of it? Yes, they're despicable. But the rocket scientists who built spacecraft? Fact is, they knew what they were doing, and were good to further our technology. They're ability to advance science is a positive quality, which does not in any way diminish their horrible qualities. Like all human beings, they had a good part, even if their bad vastly overshadows it. HumaneEngineer (talk) 02:01, 27 September 2018 (UTC)