Editing Talk:2068: Election Night

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This is an early example of using red and blue to denote candidates and parties. Here, McKinley (R) gets blue and Bryan (D) red; it wasn't standardized on blue for Democrats and red for Republicans until after the 2000 election. NBC News having used red/R and blue/D that year, Tom Brokaw was the first to speak extensively of "red states" and "blue states" elevating that to political meme status and leading to standardization. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.78.166|162.158.78.166]] 14:36, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

:I was just going to mention the hat :) [[Special:Contributions/108.162.246.191|108.162.246.191]] 14:57, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I distinctly remember the reporting during the 1980 election (Reagan vs. Carter) that the TV news used blue for Republicans and red for Democrats.  I don't know why they later switched, but I have always assumed that Democrats got offended by the use of red (the color of the USSR's flag and many other communist organizations) for their party.  [[User:Shamino|Shamino]] ([[User talk:Shamino|talk]]) 15:19, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

:Beyond having one party being red and the other blue, there was no consistent color-coding scheme for the two major parties either from election to election or between news agencies prior to 2000. Both parties still officially list red, white, and blue as their colors. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.79.149|162.158.79.149]] 15:24, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

::There's a long history about red and blue states, all of which comes directly from the media reporting the different parties. It's interesting to note that in Europe, the liberal parties are red and the conservative parties are blue (opposite of the US), and the fact that red is the color of the USSR has nothing to do with the Democrats "not wanting to be red," they didn't choose the colors. [[User:Zachweix|Zachweix]] ([[User talk:Zachweix|talk]]) 16:51, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
::: Actually liberal parties tend to be in the yellow/orange part of the spectrum (see LibDems in the UK or FDP in Germany), red is for parties with more (historical) socialist leanings (Labour, SDP). [[Special:Contributions/188.114.102.4|188.114.102.4]] 19:25, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
:: European politics, unlike US politics, is multidimensional. [[User:Erkinalp|Erkinalp]] ([[User talk:Erkinalp|talk]]) 16:59, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
::: No doubt, Europe is a beautiful, utopian paradise; and the U.S. is a disgusting, dystopian, backwards, hellhole.  [[Special:Contributions/172.68.90.80|172.68.90.80]] 16:41, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

:::: Whoa there. Speaking as an American, Erkin is right. We have two parties. One dimension, left or right. There are plenty more established parties in Europe, making it -- you guessed it -- multidimensional. While their comment was indeed mostly unprompted, I think we might be a little touchy here. I am curious, though, as to why you chose to (I'm assuming sarcastically) describe the US as "a disgusting, dystopian, backwards, hellhole" in August 2020? Surely you see the irony? [[User:BlackHat|BlackHat]] ([[User talk:BlackHat|talk]]) 06:55, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

:: IIRC, blue was used for incumbents on some stations, red for challengers, and in 2000, blue stuck as the color of the democratic party, {{unsigned ip|162.158.79.107}}

:::It seems to have been chosen pretty much arbitrarily. As much as I follow politics, I never heard of any clear association where the Democrats were blue and Republicans red -- ''or vice versa'' -- until after election night in 2000. Before then, there was no well-known standard as to which party would get which color on a map. The standard colors we have now only stuck based on the coverage from election night (and afterward) in 2000. --[[Special:Contributions/172.68.150.46|172.68.150.46]] 17:26, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

God I feel awful for the Civil war vets with PTSD who decided to reside in Chicago. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.33.11|172.69.33.11]] 17:05, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

What is the 'Needle' referring to? [[Special:Contributions/162.158.142.4|162.158.142.4]] 17:46, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
: The Traumatic Needle can be found here... https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/11/the-new-york-times-election-needle-is-back-with-a-few-new-safety-features {{unsigned ip|162.158.106.126}}

I was reading this, expecting the last page (or the title text) to have someone commenting that lecturing to modern people about how things were in the past is a pretty trivial or bizarre waste of something as momentous as time travel; and top hat guy to reply that he didn't come to bring them a message, he's just avoiding the fireworks because he's fed up of the modern election-night media circus. -- [[User:Angel|Angel]] ([[User talk:Angel|talk]]) 17:50, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Does anyone have a source for the 1896 reporting via fireworks referred to here?  I've done a few Google searches, but so far haven't found anything.  Historic issues of the Chicago Tribune is behind a paywall, so I can't go look there directly.  [[User:Shamino|Shamino]] ([[User talk:Shamino|talk]]) 18:40, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
: I assume Randall made this up? [[Special:Contributions/173.245.48.171|173.245.48.171]] 18:49, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
::Telling from [https://img.newspapers.com/img/thumbnail/349884040/250/150/5939_4729_418_251/0/yes/5893_4842_511_25.jpg this snippet], it seems legit. --[[Special:Contributions/172.68.50.172|172.68.50.172]] 18:54, 5 November 2018 (UTC) 
::: It is legit, scroll through the first result here:[https://chicagotribune.newspapers.com/search/#lnd=1&query=blue+to+indicate+McKinley%27s+election&ymd=1896-11-01]. (Update: I have no idea how to format this properly, somebody that knows how please fix this and feel free to remove this message) --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.79.149|162.158.79.149]] 21:56, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
::::I fixed your problem, just start your comment at the beginning of a line. --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 22:31, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
::::Thanks for the link.  Unfortunately, it is blocked by the Tribune's paywall.  [[User:Shamino|Shamino]] ([[User talk:Shamino|talk]]) 22:36, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::Here's the transcription of that article (I have access through my ancestry account): "Election Bulletins BY BOMBS. | TUESDAY NIGHT THE TRIBUNE will send up from the roof of the GREAT NORTHERN HOTEL hourly, shells containing blue and red stars - exactly on the hour - at 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 p.m. 12 midnight, 1 and 2 a. m. Wednesday morning, unless election is decided earlier, in which case twelve bombs will be sent up in rapid succession. Blue to indicate McKinley's election. Red to indicate Bryan's election. SIX BOMBS EVERY HOUR. The first bomb sent up, if blue, indicates the returns in COOK COUNTY at that hour are favorable to McKinley; if red, favorable to Bryan. After sixty seconds two bombs will be sent up in rapid succession, and will indicate, if blue, that returns from ILLINOIS favor McKinley; if red, Bryan. After sixty more seconds more three [sic] bombs will be sent up in rapid succession, and if blue will indicate that at that hour returns from the entire country favor McKinley; if red, Bryan. Each bomb bursts high in the air, scattering a shower of stars."--[[Special:Contributions/172.68.65.6|172.68.65.6]] 14:05, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
::::Is the hovertext quote legit, too? –[[User:P1h3r1e3d13|P1h3r1e3d13]] ([[User talk:P1h3r1e3d13|talk]]) 23:15, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

There needs to be a reference to "Dewey Defeats Truman" in the explanation. When Megan says they will get the election results the next day this would not have been the correct reults. The Chicago Daily Tribune published a newspaper with the headline "Dewey Defeats Truman" but the newspaper article was wrong. Because of publishing deadlines they published what they thought was correct but more results came in later and Truman won. With the internet and 24 hour news stations this problem does not exist. Also perhaps there could be a reference to Florida's "hanging chad" which caused caused the election results to be decided in the coarts and not overnight. [[User:Punchcard|Punchcard]] ([[User talk:Punchcard|talk]]) 15:20, 6 November 2018 (UTC)


'''Papal conclave'''

No one else sees parallels to the {{w|Papal conclave#Smoke colors|smoke colors}} after a papal conclave? It's white and black there, but the principle is the same (no telecommunication, ...) --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 20:15, 5 November 2018 (UTC)



Is the needle a relative of the good old swingometer. The BBc's favoured method of showing predicted General Election results based on polling and a uniform swing. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.39.41|162.158.39.41]] 00:06, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
: As depicted by [https://youtu.be/dVI5ZOT5QEM Monty Python]?  [[User:Shamino|Shamino]] ([[User talk:Shamino|talk]]) 13:42, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 ::There's a long history about red and blue states, all of which comes directly from the media reporting the different parties. It's interesting to note that in Europe, the liberal parties are red and the conservative parties are blue (opposite of the US), and the fact that red is the color of the USSR has nothing to do with the Democrats "not wanting to be red," they didn't choose the colors. [[User:Zachweix|Zachweix]] ([[User talk:Zachweix|talk]]) 16:51, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 ::: Actually liberal parties tend to be in the yellow/orange part of the spectrum (see LibDems in the UK or FDP in Germany), red is for parties with more (historical) socialist leanings (Labour, SDP). [[Special:Contributions/188.114.102.4|188.114.102.4]] 19:25, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
-:::: Rather most liberal parties in Europe in the last decades moved on the political right of Europe's conservative parties, emphasizing an immigrant-critical, corporate-friendly program over civil liberties. So 'liberals' has another ring to Europeans than to US-Americans. Sebastian --[[Special:Contributions/172.68.110.88|172.68.110.88]] 18:20, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 :: European politics, unlike US politics, is multidimensional. [[User:Erkinalp|Erkinalp]] ([[User talk:Erkinalp|talk]]) 16:59, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 ::: No doubt, Europe is a beautiful, utopian paradise; and the U.S. is a disgusting, dystopian, backwards, hellhole.  [[Special:Contributions/172.68.90.80|172.68.90.80]] 16:41, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
@@ Line 25: / Line 24: @@
 What is the 'Needle' referring to? [[Special:Contributions/162.158.142.4|162.158.142.4]] 17:46, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 : The Traumatic Needle can be found here... https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/11/the-new-york-times-election-needle-is-back-with-a-few-new-safety-features {{unsigned ip|162.158.106.126}}
-: MSNBC also had a needle in their election coverage Tuesday night that jiggled.  It indicated the likelihood of the House of Representatives going Democrat or staying Republican.  It could point to Likely Democrat, Leaning Democrat, Leaning Republican, and Likely Republican.  When I first turned in, the percentage was 50% of it turning Democrat and thus the needle was pointed to Leaning Democrat.  Later the percentage increased to 60%, then %70, and then jumped to 90% and 95% as the needle moved into the Likely Democrat section.  --[[User:Tcrosley|Tcrosley]] ([[User talk:Tcrosley|talk]]) 17:08, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
 I was reading this, expecting the last page (or the title text) to have someone commenting that lecturing to modern people about how things were in the past is a pretty trivial or bizarre waste of something as momentous as time travel; and top hat guy to reply that he didn't come to bring them a message, he's just avoiding the fireworks because he's fed up of the modern election-night media circus. -- [[User:Angel|Angel]] ([[User talk:Angel|talk]]) 17:50, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
-:What would you do if you could travel anywhere in the future?  I'd be worried about my immune system not being adapted to whatever the common flora happen to be.  [[Special:Contributions/172.69.210.64|172.69.210.64]] 19:27, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
 Does anyone have a source for the 1896 reporting via fireworks referred to here?  I've done a few Google searches, but so far haven't found anything.  Historic issues of the Chicago Tribune is behind a paywall, so I can't go look there directly.  [[User:Shamino|Shamino]] ([[User talk:Shamino|talk]]) 18:40, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
@@ Line 36: / Line 33: @@
 ::::I fixed your problem, just start your comment at the beginning of a line. --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 22:31, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 ::::Thanks for the link.  Unfortunately, it is blocked by the Tribune's paywall.  [[User:Shamino|Shamino]] ([[User talk:Shamino|talk]]) 22:36, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
-:::::Here's the transcription of that article (I have access through my ancestry account): "..."--[[Special:Contributions/172.68.65.6|172.68.65.6]] 14:05, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
+:::::Here's the transcription of that article (I have access through my ancestry account): "Election Bulletins BY BOMBS. | TUESDAY NIGHT THE TRIBUNE will send up from the roof of the GREAT NORTHERN HOTEL hourly, shells containing blue and red stars - exactly on the hour - at 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 p.m. 12 midnight, 1 and 2 a. m. Wednesday morning, unless election is decided earlier, in which case twelve bombs will be sent up in rapid succession. Blue to indicate McKinley's election. Red to indicate Bryan's election. SIX BOMBS EVERY HOUR. The first bomb sent up, if blue, indicates the returns in COOK COUNTY at that hour are favorable to McKinley; if red, favorable to Bryan. After sixty seconds two bombs will be sent up in rapid succession, and will indicate, if blue, that returns from ILLINOIS favor McKinley; if red, Bryan. After sixty more seconds more three [sic] bombs will be sent up in rapid succession, and if blue will indicate that at that hour returns from the entire country favor McKinley; if red, Bryan. Each bomb bursts high in the air, scattering a shower of stars."--[[Special:Contributions/172.68.65.6|172.68.65.6]] 14:05, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
-::::::Copyright problems. There is a paywall and we don't want to pay for it. Please explain the content with your own words or present a free source which may be possible because it's more than 100 years old. --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 22:14, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
-:::::::If it's transcription of 120 years old article, it's public domain no matter where did you copied it from. Don't let the fact that publishers wants you to pay even for public domain articles confuse you. Also, note that it's still visible in wiki history. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 02:21, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
-::::::::You misunderstand: Present a free source that's not behind the ''Tribune's paywall'', or just don't mention it because the original isn't protected anymore. That paywall could ask us for paying and I don't want that. I know I'm nitpicking but lawyers are too. And of course hidden sources are always a problem because it can't be verified. --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 19:55, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
 ::::Is the hovertext quote legit, too? –[[User:P1h3r1e3d13|P1h3r1e3d13]] ([[User talk:P1h3r1e3d13|talk]]) 23:15, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
-:::::That's what I'd like to know.-[[Special:Contributions/162.158.79.65|162.158.79.65]] 04:13, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
-::::::According to the dropbox link to a Tribune article below, it is legit. The dropbox article doesn't quite match the qoutes from the comic, probably a different article, but it does mention the megaphones and the Barnum and Bailey guy: "Foghorn Lou" Graham. {{unsigned ip|172.69.62.196}}
 There needs to be a reference to "Dewey Defeats Truman" in the explanation. When Megan says they will get the election results the next day this would not have been the correct reults. The Chicago Daily Tribune published a newspaper with the headline "Dewey Defeats Truman" but the newspaper article was wrong. Because of publishing deadlines they published what they thought was correct but more results came in later and Truman won. With the internet and 24 hour news stations this problem does not exist. Also perhaps there could be a reference to Florida's "hanging chad" which caused caused the election results to be decided in the coarts and not overnight. [[User:Punchcard|Punchcard]] ([[User talk:Punchcard|talk]]) 15:20, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
@@ Line 51: / Line 42: @@
 No one else sees parallels to the {{w|Papal conclave#Smoke colors|smoke colors}} after a papal conclave? It's white and black there, but the principle is the same (no telecommunication, ...) --[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 20:15, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
-:Papal conclave's been copied a number of times - see baby gender declaration via pink/blue smoke and newspapers in the UK put out red or blue smoke depending on which political party they're propagandising for. [[User:Kev|Kev]] ([[User talk:Kev|talk]]) 01:49, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
 Is the needle a relative of the good old swingometer. The BBc's favoured method of showing predicted General Election results based on polling and a uniform swing. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.39.41|162.158.39.41]] 00:06, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 : As depicted by [https://youtu.be/dVI5ZOT5QEM Monty Python]?  [[User:Shamino|Shamino]] ([[User talk:Shamino|talk]]) 13:42, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
-::Think Top Hat Guy is going to become a new character? {{unsigned ip|172.68.133.180}}
-::: I was about to ask the same thing: MORE TOP HAT GUY please [[User:Kev|Kev]] ([[User talk:Kev|talk]]) 01:49, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
-'''Real?'''
-Is the newspaper clipping quoted real? Does anyone have a link to a scan of it? Would be good to know if it's true history or just a joke. -[[Special:Contributions/162.158.79.65|162.158.79.65]] 04:11, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
-:Totally real. [https://www.dropbox.com/s/nex1k2dfznaa3nw/Chicago_Tribune_1_Nov_1896_p29-30.pdf?dl=0 Chicago Tribune, 1 Nov 1896, pp29-30] [[User:Mbklein|Mbklein]] ([[User talk:Mbklein|talk]]) 07:41, 7 November 2018 (UTC)